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 Post subject: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:39 pm 
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Objective Investor wrote:
Did anyone read the lead story in the Sindo today, Jerome Reilly;

http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 23663.html

'A RECOVERY in the property market is being stopped dead in its tracks by the banks, which are turning down at least half of all mortgage applications...With many experts now convinced that the market has gone below bottom'

The level of rage I experienced reading just one paragraph is difficult to communicate. This reads to me very much like a deliberate attempt to influence the attitudes of the reader through deliberate misrepresentation of the facts.
Misdirection # 1, where is this recovery? Surely it would have to have started to be stopped dead in it's tracks. With his opening sentence he takes us from the facts - property prices are still falling as fast as they ever have, applications to mortgage approvals are down 80% since the 2006, etc. - to a fairly land where buyers are desperate to take advantage of the huge 'value' out there but are being prevented from doing so by the evil banks.
Misdirection # 2, many experts? REALLY. Who? For one thing I don't actually think they exist and if they do I can be almost certain they were of the same breed of experts who predicted a soft landing.

After years of shameless cheerleading, causing many of their readers to suffer horrific financial losses and all the stress that goes along with negative equity, I am astonished that the paper has the cheek to lead with a story like this.
The media is so important in democracy, there has to be some kind of mechanism put in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening. If he wants to give his own opinions then it's up to individuals to decide whether or not to listen. But using words like experts should at least be followed up with a reference to the source.

Is there any way we could start a new thread on this? I feel I'm getting a bit off topic on this post and I'm only getting started on this rant!


Your wish is my command, Objective Investor - and since I saw Harry Potter last night, I can even wave a magic wand and add a link to that Sindo article.

(Original post here.

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Last edited by What Goes Up... on Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Added link to article


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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:00 pm 
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Objective Investor wrote:
Did anyone read the lead story in the Sindo today, Jerome Reilly;

'A RECOVERY in the property market is being stopped dead in its tracks by the banks, which are turning down at least half of all mortgage applications...With many experts now convinced that the market has gone below bottom'


This is Sindo genius. For everyone wondering why we haven't reached the bottom yet, it's cause we've already passed it!

Quote:
Misdirection # 2, many experts? REALLY. Who? For one thing I don't actually think they exist and if they do I can be almost certain they were of the same breed of experts who predicted a soft landing.


An expert in this case is someone who knows lots about selling property. And who knows the most about selling property?


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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:09 am 
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Objective Investor wrote:
... After years of shameless cheerleading, causing many of their readers to suffer horrific financial losses and all the stress that goes along with negative equity, I am astonished that the paper has the cheek to lead with a story like this.
The media is so important in democracy, there has to be some kind of mechanism put in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening...

Come on. Get real! The mass media is antithetical to democracy as it currently operates.

It usurps the capacity of people to genuinely and democratically come to share their own concepts of things, and reach a shared understanding of what is in agreement and what is not in agreement. It has become merely a 'feedback device' to maintain stability in certain holding of concepts and understanding of reality that is necessary to the status quo. ie. reinforcement of a certain reality. - The institutional character of the device can be easily seen in its deeply entrenched routines, ties with the business and political establishment, promotion of the values of materialism and consumerism, conservative respect for the status quo, and how its 'news' is purely a commodity to be sold.

And it is open to manipulation of course. The kind of manipulation you highlight in your post is only a very crude sort of attempt at manipulation. The Sindo often gets ahead of themselves and full of themselves. Their power goes to their head. The phrase 'if they had a brain in their head, they'd be dangerous' is a fitting one for the Sindo. I posted a diagram of 'how important the media is for democracy' in another thread yesterday that illustrates its working - viewtopic.php?f=54&t=39505&p=522752#p522752

But we are not talking about democracy. It is something very far from a real democracy. As I think my diagram shows, it is a system of control that is far from the ideals of democracy as originally conceived and later expounded upon by men like Jefferson.


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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:15 am 
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If you drop 'past bottom', it's because it wasn't the bottom.

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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:29 am 
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Wow, a house builder - a likely source for independent and unbiased advice on the property market. And who is this random punter who we have never heard of before, Kevin McNerney of the Trusted Advisor Group? Have the usual suspects finally decided that they are utterly discredited and are afraid to call the bottom once more?

How this crap ends up on the front page of the most widely read paper in the country is beyond me. Paper was also full of Karl Deeter, Carol Hunt and friends harping on about debt forgiveness... Sindo now playing it as "The only game in town", now where did we hear that before.

On the plus side, Georgia Salpa sure does look nice in the "life" jazz-mag...

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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:51 am 
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The only people the press can legitimately call 'experts' are people like Morgan Kelly, Mc Williams etc
They are human like the rest of us, but at least they were considerably more right in their predictions than the 'experts' that article is abviously referring to
When someone like Morgan Kelly says we have reached a bottom then that will be news. Until then its the usual VIs perpetually calling the bottom...and its getting BORING!!


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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:02 pm 
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karlos_the_jackal wrote:
Wow, a house builder - a likely source for independent and unbiased advice on the property market. And who is this random punter who we have never heard of before, Kevin McNerney of the Trusted Advisor Group? Have the usual suspects finally decided that they are utterly discredited and are afraid to call the bottom once more?

How this crap ends up on the front page of the most widely read paper in the country is beyond me. Paper was also full of Karl Deeter, Carol Hunt and friends harping on about debt forgiveness... Sindo now playing it as "The only game in town", now where did we hear that before.

On the plus side, Georgia Salpa sure does look nice in the "life" jazz-mag...


And that, my friend, is why this country is so fucked. Glad to see that Johnny Ronan had a great time at Glastonbury, what a rag. Hope it all works out between Georgia and Calum, can't wait to find out more about Ireland's great and glamorous people next week. One day that'll be me and Johnny and Georgia and the gang all hanging out in Robbie Fox's. How fucking I'm a gobshite is this country?


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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:26 pm 
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GreenEyedMonster wrote:
karlos_the_jackal wrote:
Wow, a house builder - a likely source for independent and unbiased advice on the property market. And who is this random punter who we have never heard of before, Kevin McNerney of the Trusted Advisor Group? Have the usual suspects finally decided that they are utterly discredited and are afraid to call the bottom once more?

How this crap ends up on the front page of the most widely read paper in the country is beyond me. Paper was also full of Karl Deeter, Carol Hunt and friends harping on about debt forgiveness... Sindo now playing it as "The only game in town", now where did we hear that before.

On the plus side, Georgia Salpa sure does look nice in the "life" jazz-mag...


And that, my friend, is why this country is so fucked. Glad to see that Johnny Ronan had a great time at Glastonbury, what a rag. Hope it all works out between Georgia and Calum, can't wait to find out more about Ireland's great and glamorous people next week. One day that'll be me and Johnny and Georgia and the gang all hanging out in Robbie Fox's. How fucking I'm a gobshite is this country?


I think its great that so many people believe what they want rather than the truth.
What is the medical term for a large group of people who dont live in the real world?
It has to be something better that 'a collection of gobshites' anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:34 pm 
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Found it!

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:42 pm 
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needle wrote:
Found it!

Image


Arse by overeating, chair by Harland and Wolf. :-GC

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The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.
Winston Churchill


A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both.
Dwight D. Eisenhower


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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:09 pm 
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roc wrote:
The mass media is antithetical to democracy as it currently operates.


Although your statement is true it seems to occupy 2 separate spaces and therefore has little meaning. Here are 2 statements which I think have more meaning;
a) In the reality space mass media as it currently operates is an integral part of our democracy as it currently operates.
b) In the theoretical space free media is an important part of democracy.

Together they imply that a shift towards greater accountability in the media industry, while still protecting its autonomy would have a positive impact on our democracy.

spqr64 wrote:
What is the medical term for a large group of people who dont live in the real world?


There are two separate terms as far as I'm aware, 'psychotic' and 'religious'.

mr_anderson wrote:
watch+wait wrote:
I lost interest in the article when I read the phrase "below bottom", I could not rationalise that statment, it was like a div/0 error to a logical mind.



Objective Investor wrote:
Did anyone read the lead story in the Sindo today


You should have lost interest at that point watch+wait. :lol:


Really? So your plan is just to ignore things that you disagree with. This isn't a good plan especially if you're interested in a specific subject such as the property market, and since you're posting on the property pin...

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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:21 pm 
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Elka wrote:
If you drop 'past bottom', it's because it wasn't the bottom.


You and your bloody logic. The SIndo will decide where the 'real' bottom of the market is. Just like they were disappointed that the market never got a chance to hit its real peak because unpatriotic know-alls bad-mouthed it into decline before it could reach its full potential.

Seriously, is there a case for collating a whole bunch of this junk and submitting it as a whole to the Press Council?
http://www.presscouncil.ie/
- Cheerleading on the way up
- Cheerleading on the way down
- Producing worthless polls by 'Quantum Research'

I realise INM make up a chunk of the membership but it would at least embarrass them in front of their peers - it they have any shame left. By far the most annoying thing about the SIndo is that it manages to pass itself off as a broadsheet due to the size of the paper it uses, giving middle-aged middle-income middle-Ireland cover for buying a tabloid rag which contains almost no news.


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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:22 pm 
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"below bottom" translation, "In the shitter".

Quote:
With many experts now convinced that the market is in the shitter

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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:31 pm 
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Ixelles wrote:
Elka wrote:
Seriously, is there a case for collating a whole bunch of this junk and submitting it as a whole to the Press Council?
http://www.presscouncil.ie/


I'm up for it, maybe it won't do any good but I'm that angry at this stage I'm willing to voice my protests even if I think they're falling on deaf ears.

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 Post subject: Re: Market Below Bottom - Sindo
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:59 pm 
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spqr64 wrote:
What is the medical term for a large group of people who dont live in the real world?
It has to be something better that 'a collection of gobshites' anyway.


Quote:
The Green Party

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