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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:35 am 
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Why does Schauble think that the Irish people collectively are responsible for this?

Anyway, nice to know the level of solidarity that we can expect from our European "friends".

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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:13 am 
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ps200306 wrote:
Why does Schauble think that the Irish people collectively are responsible for this?

Anyway, nice to know the level of solidarity that we can expect from our European "friends".


"We all went mad", It says so on your passport, didn't you notice?

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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:38 am 
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ps200306 wrote:
Why does Schauble think that the Irish people collectively are responsible for this?

Anyway, nice to know the level of solidarity that we can expect from our European "friends".


That Wanker can go fuck himself with his Kollectivschuld.

Am I alone in wishing something bad happens to Germany? Their arrogance and condescension needs another comeuppance.


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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:08 am 
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BlameGame wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
Why does Schauble think that the Irish people collectively are responsible for this?

Anyway, nice to know the level of solidarity that we can expect from our European "friends".


That Wanker can go fuck himself with his Kollectivschuld.

Am I alone in wishing something bad happens to Germany? Their arrogance and condescension needs another comeuppance.



Suddenly the comments of one man belong to all Germans simply because he is Finance Minister?
Pot, kettle, black.


Last edited by Inis Man on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:12 am 
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Joined: Aug 22, 2008
Posts: 3547
High Noon wrote:
Mantissa wrote:
So your point is that the ECB should have saved us from our own stupidity and therefore they're somehow responsible?
I'd have thought that that's the ECB's purpose. Why else give it a mandate to regulate banks?

I don't think you have thought through the real-life regulatory challenge. Are you suggesting that back in 2003-2007, the ECB could have stepped in roughshod over our 'sovereignty' ( sick:) and told us to stop behaving like sleeveen short-sighted nasty children let loose in a sweet-shop? - Sure listen to the likes of many on here even now, when the sweet-shop is destroyed, all the children are sick and vomiting and their parents (the more mature EU nations) are now being faced with severe responsibilities and consequences as a result.

It has been laid down in the EU treaties since 1992 that action cannot be taken at central European level (except in the areas that fall within its exclusive competence), unless it is more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level.

Thus, all they could do was advise us. And they did. Repeatedly. What was OUR response? It was to sneer at them. Laugh at the advice and sure weren't we the best little country ever, going to show the whole world how it was done.

Our newspapers applauded and our population voted them in again, and again, and again. That is how Schauble thinks that the Irish people are collectively responsible for this. No, not everyone 'partied', but practically everyone went quietly about their day to day business, taking the pay increases, while naive FTBs were being shaken down for their whole life's productive effort and being housed in dismal chicken runs in return etc etc. There was no real engagement in politics or the life of the country until one's own little stash and livelihood was threatened. We are seemingly a democracy, and the people spoke at the polls, in the newspapers and media, through the institutions in this country, and through their voting every four years for more of the same...

Schauble is merely talking about responsibility. But we have the usual reaction. Me-feinism and childish short-sightedness and blaming of others...


EDIT - what Irish institution of all our institutions can stand up and say, we were not one of these irresponsible sleeveen short-sighted nasty children let loose in a sweet-shop... Or even to put it in straighter terms, who acknowledged the immorality of what the whole country was engaged in - Living off the future work of their children...

Our political institutions?
Our banking and financial institutions?
Our engineering and architectural institutions?
Our business bodies, associations and institutions?
Our golf clubs and other sporting societies?
Our civil service and semi-state bodies and institutions?
Our educational institutions?
Our media institutions?

Not one... but people would have had some 'adult' EU entity step in and tell all of the above how to behave? Get real and fuck off.


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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:53 am 
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Posts: 934
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roc wrote:
High Noon wrote:
Mantissa wrote:
So your point is that the ECB should have saved us from our own stupidity and therefore they're somehow responsible?
I'd have thought that that's the ECB's purpose. Why else give it a mandate to regulate banks?

I don't think you have thought through the real-life regulatory challenge. Are you suggesting that back in 2003-2007, the ECB could have stepped in roughshod over our 'sovereignty' ( sick:) and told us to stop behaving like sleeveen short-sighted nasty children let loose in a sweet-shop? - Sure listen to the likes of many on here even now, when the sweet-shop is destroyed, all the children are sick and vomiting and their parents (the more mature EU nations) are now being faced with severe responsibilities and consequences as a result.

It has been laid down in the EU treaties since 1992 that action cannot be taken at central European level (except in the areas that fall within its exclusive competence), unless it is more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level.

Thus, all they could do was advise us. And they did. Repeatedly. What was OUR response? It was to sneer at them. Laugh at the advice and sure weren't we the best little country ever, going to show the whole world how it was done.

Our newspapers applauded and our population voted them in again, and again, and again. That is how Schauble thinks that the Irish people are collectively responsible for this. No, not everyone 'partied', but practically everyone went quietly about their day to day business, taking the pay increases, while naive FTBs were being shaken down for their whole life's productive effort and being housed in dismal chicken runs in return etc etc. There was no real engagement in politics or the life of the country until one's own little stash and livelihood was threatened. We are seemingly a democracy, and the people spoke at the polls, in the newspapers and media, through the institutions in this country, and through their voting every four years for more of the same...

Schauble is merely talking about responsibility. But we have the usual reaction. Me-feinism and childish short-sightedness and blaming of others...


EDIT - what Irish institution of all our institutions can stand up and say, we were not one of these irresponsible sleeveen short-sighted nasty children let loose in a sweet-shop... Or even to put it in straighter terms, who acknowledged the immorality of what the whole country was engaged in - Living off the future work of their children...

Our political institutions?
Our banking and financial institutions?
Our engineering and architectural institutions?
Our business bodies, associations and institutions?
Our golf clubs and other sporting societies?
Our civil service and semi-state bodies and institutions?
Our educational institutions?
Our media institutions?

Not one... but people would have had some 'adult' EU entity step in and tell all of the above how to behave? Get real and fuck off.


Completely agree.

And what would have happened if the ECB had tried to be more activist? The Irish government would have gone to the various treaties and told the ECB to f*ck off. And every other EU Finance minuster would have jumped on the bandwagon too, to stop a precedent from being set.

I said this on another thread - some people blame "the euro" - and I don't get this at all.

The euro itself can't be wrong or right. It just exists. Its the decisions that people made about the opportunities the euro presented, that are wrong or right.

We (the Irish people) made bad decisions. We took a torrent of cheap money and put it into houses. Much of this money should have gone to infrastructure and investment in business and manufacturing. Investment that produces exports and earns the country money - investments that could stand the test of time and business cycles.

The government should have incentivised these as easily, and instead of, incentivising real estate. We ignored all warnings and advice. McCreevy even infamously went so far as to lecture other EU Fin Min about the "Irish Way".
Again, Irish people made this decision (or voted for it, or passively acquiesced in it), not "the euro". Even those who could see what was going to happen, were ultimately constrained by Irish social mores and norms and branded as "doomers".

This is an Irish problem created by Irish people.


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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:37 am 
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Joined: Aug 22, 2008
Posts: 3547
london_irish wrote:
roc wrote:
High Noon wrote:
Mantissa wrote:
So your point is that the ECB should have saved us from our own stupidity and therefore they're somehow responsible?
I'd have thought that that's the ECB's purpose. Why else give it a mandate to regulate banks?

I don't think you have thought through the real-life regulatory challenge. Are you suggesting that back in 2003-2007, the ECB could have stepped in roughshod over our 'sovereignty' ( sick:) and told us to stop behaving like sleeveen short-sighted nasty children let loose in a sweet-shop? - Sure listen to the likes of many on here even now, when the sweet-shop is destroyed, all the children are sick and vomiting and their parents (the more mature EU nations) are now being faced with severe responsibilities and consequences as a result.

It has been laid down in the EU treaties since 1992 that action cannot be taken at central European level (except in the areas that fall within its exclusive competence), unless it is more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level.

Thus, all they could do was advise us. And they did. Repeatedly. What was OUR response? It was to sneer at them. Laugh at the advice and sure weren't we the best little country ever, going to show the whole world how it was done.

Our newspapers applauded and our population voted them in again, and again, and again. That is how Schauble thinks that the Irish people are collectively responsible for this. No, not everyone 'partied', but practically everyone went quietly about their day to day business, taking the pay increases, while naive FTBs were being shaken down for their whole life's productive effort and being housed in dismal chicken runs in return etc etc. There was no real engagement in politics or the life of the country until one's own little stash and livelihood was threatened. We are seemingly a democracy, and the people spoke at the polls, in the newspapers and media, through the institutions in this country, and through their voting every four years for more of the same...

Schauble is merely talking about responsibility. But we have the usual reaction. Me-feinism and childish short-sightedness and blaming of others...


EDIT - what Irish institution of all our institutions can stand up and say, we were not one of these irresponsible sleeveen short-sighted nasty children let loose in a sweet-shop... Or even to put it in straighter terms, who acknowledged the immorality of what the whole country was engaged in - Living off the future work of their children...

Our political institutions?
Our banking and financial institutions?
Our engineering and architectural institutions?
Our business bodies, associations and institutions?
Our golf clubs and other sporting societies?
Our civil service and semi-state bodies and institutions?
Our educational institutions?
Our media institutions?

Not one... but people would have had some 'adult' EU entity step in and tell all of the above how to behave? Get real and fuck off.


Completely agree.

And what would have happened if the ECB had tried to be more activist? The Irish government would have gone to the various treaties and told the ECB to f*ck off. And every other EU Finance minuster would have jumped on the bandwagon too, to stop a precedent from being set.

I said this on another thread - some people blame "the euro" - and I don't get this at all.

The euro itself can't be wrong or right. It just exists. Its the decisions that people made about the opportunities the euro presented, that are wrong or right.

We (the Irish people) made bad decisions. We took a torrent of cheap money and put it into houses. Much of this money should have gone to infrastructure and investment in business and manufacturing. Investment that produces exports and earns the country money - investments that could stand the test of time and business cycles.

The government should have incentivised these as easily, and instead of, incentivising real estate. We ignored all warnings and advice. McCreevy even infamously went so far as to lecture other EU Fin Min about the "Irish Way".
Again, Irish people made this decision (or voted for it, or passively acquiesced in it), not "the euro". Even those who could see what was going to happen, were ultimately constrained by Irish social mores and norms and branded as "doomers".

This is an Irish problem created by Irish people.

Yes. And what is most cringe-worthy in all of this, is that all along, Europe continues to pay for us - to ensure the country has enough money to keep going.

All along, since even before 1973, Europe has been a substantial net beneficiary to this country. Previously, this money helped build up our infrastructure and economic capabilities. But now, it is the very life-blood that is staving off total collapse. *

Yet, Irish people turn around and say, 'it's all THEIR fault, we have these problems'?! They sneer at an 'adult' like Schauble when he stands up and quietly reminds people of some adult realities?

It's not just a matter of 'biting the hand that feeds us'. It's a deeply embarrassing and shameful way for seeming adults to behave. Even in children, I'd personally expect a lot more. It is no way to carry on.


* EDIT - Sure, you have the ideologically driven economic illiterates who cry, "stop all of this money, pull it out of the economy, we don't need it..." but they just don't understand the real-life repercussions of that action. Nor do they want to understand it. They do not think to look to other similar economic dynamics such as Russia in the 90's. And similar. Or heed the peer-reviewed economists over and above the blogging christian fundamentalist economists and predatory hedge fund managers. Obviously the 'preacher' type economics is designed to appeal to something other than science. Those prey to these 'preachers' have no appreciation of the habits of mind - methods, or techniques - and the command of facts unearthed by these techniques and mental habits that go beyond the mental habits and factual knowledge of everyday life. Too much effort for them. Everything must be made 'simple'. They even will say, 'economics is not a 'science' in an attempt to justify their extremely dated deficient analyses. But 95% of internet forum discussion space these days seems to be filled with this kind of twonk fodder, driven at root by self-interest of course... and unsurprisingly...)


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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:59 am 
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Agree largely with last few comments. Also a bit challenged by them, which is good.

I've always been very cautious with money: no debt, no speculation, etc., and so find it galling now to be held to account for the profligacy of my prodigal brothers.

But at the same time, I've never been politically active or worked to control the environment. So although I shouldn't (morally... and I mean my morals before anyone lambasts me for recourse to abstracts) have to pick up the tab, the fact is that there are agents who will try to stick that to me, and I've not fought back so what right have I to complain.

I see two valid responses. Decide to go along with it and take the pain (i.e. do nothing); or decide to actively control the situation (itself a big project with options from emigration to politcal activism).

It all reminds me of the "True Knowledge" in Ken MacLeod's fall-revolution cycle of novels.


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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:25 pm 
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Posts: 934
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roc wrote:
Yes. And what is most cringe-worthy in all of this, is that all along, Europe continues to pay for us - to ensure the country has enough money to keep going.


And this was particularly the case between Sept 2008 and the bailout, where the ECB pumped in billions to keep our banking system alive, all the while pleading with Lenihan to get a grip on the situation.

Trichet finally sent a letter to "force" us into a bailout? Quell surprise. Your "We are fully funded until June" is my "We run out of money in 6 months".

There is a really warped narrative out there as to how we got here. Some even think the ECB forced us in the Guarantee. When in fact we only called Trichet and Largarde (she was French FinMin then) in the middle of the night. Alistair Darling nearly had a heart attack. Oh, how they must have laughed, in Government Buildings.


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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Posts: 397
london_irish wrote:
roc wrote:
Yes. And what is most cringe-worthy in all of this, is that all along, Europe continues to pay for us - to ensure the country has enough money to keep going.


And this was particularly the case between Sept 2008 and the bailout, where the ECB pumped in billions to keep our banking system alive, all the while pleading with Lenihan to get a grip on the situation...

This was a large part of the stroke in tying the state to the banks in September 2008. How could they allow a bank to fail then, if it would drag down an EU state, using Euro, with it down the plug-hole? Big difference then to allowing a bank to fail on its own...


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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:34 pm 
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Posts: 645
london_irish wrote:
This is an Irish problem created by Irish people.


I agree with all of these posts.

....but, who was responsible for regulating the flow of money to "Irish" banks which was then loaned into a property bubble? These people/institutions have been protected from any losses by funds loaned to Ireland by the Toika (and the NPRF, don't forget the NPRF), no?

Are some of these instituions German? Was their behaviour not every bit as wreckless as that of the institutions we were failing to regulate? Did they not benifit from the bubble? Who was regulating them? Why were they not "Bailed out" by the states within which they were regulated?

Irish people fucked up on an epic scale. But they could not have done so (to the extent that they did) without the assistance of institutions who were behaving imprudently. These institutions have not suffered in any way for this imprudent behaviour.

The German Finance Minister understands this much better than I do.


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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:38 pm 
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Col. Max Pyatnitski wrote:
Agree largely with last few comments. Also a bit challenged by them, which is good.

I've always been very cautious with money: no debt, no speculation, etc., and so find it galling now to be held to account for the profligacy of my prodigal brothers.

But at the same time, I've never been politically active or worked to control the environment. So although I shouldn't (morally... and I mean my morals before anyone lambasts me for recourse to abstracts) have to pick up the tab, the fact is that there are agents who will try to stick that to me, and I've not fought back so what right have I to complain.

I see two valid responses. Decide to go along with it and take the pain (i.e. do nothing); or decide to actively control the situation (itself a big project with options from emigration to politcal activism).

It all reminds me of the "True Knowledge" in Ken MacLeod's fall-revolution cycle of novels.


You hit on a point I was going to raise. So I've ranted a bit on this thread but, you know, the first person I would point the finger at here - is me.
At the height of the madness, and after I had enough of trying to explain my view and being heavily patronized for it - I emigrated.
In one sense, I took control of my own destiny by doing that. But now I can see I was also taking an escape route that has always been programmed into Irish society for those who are ostracized/running away from themselves/need work/etc etc etc etc.
I should have stayed and fought? But then, that was 10 years ago. If I had stayed, I can see now "the Boom" and all that went with it would have steamrollered right over me. And still, I'm a part of the systems failure as anyone else.


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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:49 pm 
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Evil_g wrote:
london_irish wrote:
This is an Irish problem created by Irish people.


I agree with all of these posts.

....but, who was responsible for regulating the flow of money to "Irish" banks which was then loaned into a property bubble? These people/institutions have been protected from any losses by funds loaned to Ireland by the Toika (and the NPRF, don't forget the NPRF), no?


Sorry to snip your post, but the answer is, or was, the Irish Financial Regulator.
Regulators in other countries also failed. That's their lookout. Yes, we're borne the costs - but again, Irish people signed up to it all the way through (boom, bust, Guarantee, bailout, etc etc). We could have said no at any time. We still can. We just have to live with the consequences at any point where we say no.

If others haven't borne the costs as much that's down to realpolitik I'm afraid. I hate it but then that makes it so much more important that the Irish people in charge do their f*cking job in future.


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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:06 pm 
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Posts: 645
london_irish wrote:
Evil_g wrote:
....but, who was responsible for regulating the flow of money to "Irish" banks which was then loaned into a property bubble?


Sorry to snip your post, but the answer is, or was, the Irish Financial Regulator.
Regulators in other countries also failed. That's their lookout. Yes, we're borne the costs - but again, Irish people signed up to it all the way through (boom, bust, Guarantee, bailout, etc etc). We could have said no at any time. We still can. We just have to live with the consequences at any point where we say no.

If others haven't borne the costs as much that's down to realpolitik I'm afraid. I hate it but then that makes it so much more important that the Irish people in charge do their f*cking job in future.


But this is in reference to Wolfgang Schauble's statement that:

Quote:
Everyone should solve their own problems. If everyone swept in front of their own door, the whole neighbourhood would be clean


Quote:
"The cause in Ireland is something Ireland itself created – not Luxembourg, not France, not Germany, but Ireland – and it benefited from it for some time," Schauble claims.


Giving faintly dim former rugby players money to lend into an obvious property bubble isn't and shouldn't be risk free. [in theory]Before doing so you should appraise the risks involved. If you assess these risks as too high, you should invest your money elsewhere. Doing so would have increased the cost of funding to Irish banks and resulted in a slowing of the bubble. [/in theory] Doing otherwise is wreckless. This wreckless behaviour took place on his doorstep.

I am not trying to absolve the Irish electorate of responsibility, I'm merely pointing out that this guy is simplifying what happened to the point of lying.


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 Post subject: Re: Everyone for themselves!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:44 pm 
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Anyway, is it everyone for themselves? Internationally? On a European level?

It's beginning to look like that, isn't it?

Is there the political appetite for full fiscal Union, which would have to include some sort of "Burden sharing"? I don't think so.

A lot will depend on the German elections in September, which will of course be affected by events in the interim.

But even if the next German government is elected on some sort of moderate platform, we're still left with a UK Prime Minister who has called for an end to ever closer union, an Italian electorate who have stumped for a guy who said last week that the spread between Italian and German Bonds was invented two years ago and doesn't matter, a French Minister for Industry who last week called for monetisation of debt and, well, Spain.

These are big countries, with indigenous industry and armies. What their leaders say matters. And I don’t think their leaders are going off on ideological solo runs. I think they are chasing their electorate who are more “Anti Europe” than they are. Maybe they’re just anti-paying-for-their-lifestyles, but for now that seems to mean anti-Europe.

And where does that leave us? Where does that leave the continent?

What’s the best possible outcome out of all of this?


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