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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:25 pm 
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Telly Savalas? :?

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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:38 am 
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yoganmahew wrote:
Telly Savalas? :?


Who robs ya, baby!

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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:03 am 
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richie268 wrote:
JohnnyTheFox wrote:
richie268 wrote:
Well I speculate that the senior citizens the individuals most likely not to have Internet will not be RUNNING to the post office this weekend nor any weekend to pay this unjust tax and the kick in the gee is that a percentage of those that did pay are now going to audited, for second pensions and all which the latter ensues.

Are you seriously suggesting that paying property tax on time is going to increase a senior citizen's chances of getting audited? Can you point to a source for that information? If you are not suggesting that and are merely pointing out the obvious, that Revenue have announced very publicly that they are focussing on undeclared pensions, and that statistically some of those senior citizens that have paid tax will get caught up in this, then so what?


Well where would you start?

Me? I would do the opposite to what you are claiming Revenue will do. I would start with those people who have been sent an LPT assessment and have not paid the tax by the due date. If people are not compliant with one tax then it's a fair bet that they haven't been fully compliant with others. That is the position that Revenue has consistently taken. A record of late tax filings is one of the criteria that adds to the weighting when choosing targets for audit. They won't be choosing to go after tax payers on the basis that they have actually paid LPT.

But thanks for clarifying that your assertion had no basis in fact although I can't say I understand the need to create imaginary instances of persecution.

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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:58 am 
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richie268 wrote:
robert wrote:
Eh, no. At least 3 things wrong about your post.

Firstly, the deadline for paper returns is actually Tuesday.

Secondly, the deadline for online returns is the end of May.

Thirdly, the payments aren't due for another couple of months.

The "people" may well protest through non-compliance, but let's wait for the compliance deadlines to pass before inferring anything!

Please expound on my 3 errors as I never mentioned in my OP anything to do with dead lines nor did I state (thirdly) a cut off for payments.
So come on and step up to the plate and explain why compliance is so low and leave the BS on your xbox


The second sentence of your OP starts with the phrase "With the compliance figure so low ..." and the last sentence in your post above asks me to "explain why compliance is so low".

I assume that "compliance" means (i) filing the return on time and/or (ii) making the payment on time. If your references to "compliance" are nothing to do with deadlines for filing the returns or making the payments, then what "compliance" are you talking about?

My point is that strictly, the deadline for "complying" with these deadlines has not yet passed, and we can therefore not yet infer what the compliance rates actually are. You may well ultimately be proven right, but we simply can't tell yet.

On the payments issue, check out the thread title (which I assume you wrote). If 25% have paid already, potentially 2 months ahead of the payment deadline, I would say that's an indication of high compliance rather than low compliance! (I realise that the truth is not that 25% have paid the tax, I assume that it's 25% have submitted their returns)

And I don't have an xbox.


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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:14 am 
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robert wrote:
richie268 wrote:
robert wrote:
Eh, no. At least 3 things wrong about your post.

Firstly, the deadline for paper returns is actually Tuesday.

Secondly, the deadline for online returns is the end of May.

Thirdly, the payments aren't due for another couple of months.

The "people" may well protest through non-compliance, but let's wait for the compliance deadlines to pass before inferring anything!

Please expound on my 3 errors as I never mentioned in my OP anything to do with dead lines nor did I state (thirdly) a cut off for payments.
So come on and step up to the plate and explain why compliance is so low and leave the BS on your xbox


The second sentence of your OP starts with the phrase "With the compliance figure so low ..." and the last sentence in your post above asks me to "explain why compliance is so low".

I assume that "compliance" means (i) filing the return on time and/or (ii) making the payment on time. If your references to "compliance" are nothing to do with deadlines for filing the returns or making the payments, then what "compliance" are you talking about?

My point is that strictly, the deadline for "complying" with these deadlines has not yet passed, and we can therefore not yet infer what the compliance rates actually are. You may well ultimately be proven right, but we simply can't tell yet.

On the payments issue, check out the thread title (which I assume you wrote). If 25% have paid already, potentially 2 months ahead of the payment deadline, I would say that's an indication of high compliance rather than low compliance! (I realise that the truth is not that 25% have paid the tax, I assume that it's 25% have submitted their returns)

And I don't have an xbox.

It's also worth noting that those with more than one property are obliged to file online so the May 7 deadline doesn't apply in their case. Hundreds of thousands of BTLs, investment properties and holiday homes fall into that category so it's not surprising that they haven't got their filing done more than a month before their actual deadline.

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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 11:19 am 
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Good point, JTF.


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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:19 pm 
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JohnnyTheFox wrote:
richie268 wrote:
JohnnyTheFox wrote:
richie268 wrote:
Well I speculate that the senior citizens the individuals most likely not to have Internet will not be RUNNING to the post office this weekend nor any weekend to pay this unjust tax and the kick in the gee is that a percentage of those that did pay are now going to audited, for second pensions and all which the latter ensues.

Are you seriously suggesting that paying property tax on time is going to increase a senior citizen's chances of getting audited? Can you point to a source for that information? If you are not suggesting that and are merely pointing out the obvious, that Revenue have announced very publicly that they are focussing on undeclared pensions, and that statistically some of those senior citizens that have paid tax will get caught up in this, then so what?


Well where would you start?

Me? I would do the opposite to what you are claiming Revenue will do. I would start with those people who have been sent an LPT assessment and have not paid the tax by the due date. If people are not compliant with one tax then it's a fair bet that they haven't been fully compliant with others. That is the position that Revenue has consistently taken. A record of late tax filings is one of the criteria that adds to the weighting when choosing targets for audit. They won't be choosing to go after tax payers on the basis that they have actually paid LPT.

Reply
What do you base the latter upon ? Those that have paid are most likely to be ones that wish not to be audited because of the obvious and yes we have not reached a deadline but remember it has been proven that 10% non compliance by the populous of a state is enough to cause anarchy and bring a state to its knees (remember Sunning-dale ).
In fact less than 24% have filed hence a major problem for Hogans Boys.


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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:14 pm 
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I'd say that it's too early to make a call as the deadline has not been passed yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:32 pm 
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richie268 wrote:
What do you base the latter upon ? Those that have paid are most likely to be ones that wish not to be audited because of the obvious and yes we have not reached a deadline but remember it has been proven that 10% non compliance by the populous of a state is enough to cause anarchy and bring a state to its knees (remember Sunning-dale ).
In fact less than 24% have filed hence a major problem for Hogans Boys.

As I already said I based it on published Revenue policy. Your personal speculation contradicts that and also what any professional tax adviser I know will tell you; if you have a clear record you are less likely to be audited and if you miss deadlines you are more likely to be audited.

Your comment about 10% non-compliance is one of the most ridiculous I've seen on here in quite some time. Are you really suggesting it doesn't matter what form non-compliance takes? In that case how do you explain the fact that our state hasn't been brought to its knees decades ago. We've always had around 90% non-compliance with the speed limits haven't we? By your reckoning that should have caused anarchy long ago. Sunningdale (why the hyphen?) was brought down by actions a lot more militant than people not having gone to the trouble of signing up for a tax a month in advance of the deadline. The comparison is idiotic.

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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:06 am 
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I note that JhonnyTheFox has based his response to my post on published Revenue policy which at best is a simple variable and at worst just a waste of ink and manpower a bit like Croke Park 2 .
It is not now and never was and will never be economically prudent to pursue over 10% of the population for an unpaid tax through the court system.
How you juxtapose speed limits with unpaid tax is beyond me and I think Jhonnythefox should simply let the hare sit.
Regards Richie


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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:30 am 
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But they won't be pursuing 10% through the courts. They'll just deduct it from benefits or wages. Unless the 10% arm themselves and take to the barricades, they'll achieve little more than interest and penalties for their troubles.

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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:58 am 
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coc wrote:
But they won't be pursuing 10% through the courts. They'll just deduct it from benefits or wages. Unless the 10% arm themselves and take to the barricades, they'll achieve little more than interest and penalties for their troubles.

Bring on the revolution.


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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:18 am 
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richie268 wrote:
I note that JhonnyTheFox has based his response to my post on published Revenue policy which at best is a simple variable and at worst just a waste of ink and manpower a bit like Croke Park 2 .
I see you have conveniently omitted the reference to tax advisers confirming that this is the reality in practice and not just a policy on paper.

richie268 wrote:
It is not now and never was and will never be economically prudent to pursue over 10% of the population for an unpaid tax through the court system.
Who mentioned anything about pursuing people through the courts? The point at issue was whether having submitted an LPT return on time left a taxpayer more likely (your contention - backed by your personal conjecture only) or less likely (my contention - backed by practice on the ground) to be selected for an audit on their other income. Given that you found it necessary to move the goalposts to a completely different field rather than addressing the point under discussion I think we can assume that you now accept, although you are unwilling to acknowledge it openly, that your original contention was rubbish.

richie268 wrote:
How you juxtapose speed limits with unpaid tax is beyond me and I think Jhonnythefox should simply let the hare sit.
Um, of course it was a ridiculous comparison. Intentionally so for illustration. It was just as ridiculous as your drawing a parallel between the mayhem that preceded the Sunningdale collapse on the one hand, and people doing what they always have done, waiting until the deadline is on top of them before submitting a tax return, on the other.

richie268 wrote:
Regards Richie
Best bank holiday regards to you too.

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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:34 pm 
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An update from the Indo. Almost 20k people paid the Household Charge (not the new LPT) last week alone. The prospect of Revenue taking over the reins seems to have had the intended effect. 1.2m households have now paid the Household Charge with eight weeks to go before Revenue, rather than the Local Authorities, will start chasing it.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ho ... 44149.html

richie268 wrote:
Property Tax only 25% have paid.
The people have spoken .
With the compliance figure so low I can not envisage the computer user in a major rush to part with his hard earned cash.
In reality this figure needs to double before months end or it is back to the drawing board.

Even if only those who have already paid the Household Charge pay the LPT by May 28, and no other refusniks are flushed out in the meantime, then we can expect to see that figure triple rather than double.

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 Post subject: Re: Property Tax only 25% have paid.
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:44 pm 
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Having seen the mailing from Revenue for property tax I can only despair.

"Wordy" is the description I would use, and that's being kind.

And it's bloodly complicated to figure out how to actually pay the fizzing tax.

But worst of all, I'm sure it has struck terror in the hearts of a lot of elderly people who can't figure it out, and who don't use computers. This is Ireland.

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