You know, underneath all of this fight for economic survival, there are big issues of how we choose to live; our morals and ethics, and the legacy we pass on to future generations.

On one side, there is the vision of the banks, who view as ‘normal’, a life where each young person indentures themselves to a lifetime of debt in return for the roof over their head.

But on the other side, there are the facts as they exist. Some of the facts that I feel ought to be pointed towards, and brought more into consciousness are:

1. Utilising current modern pre-fab technologies, the pure building costs for a basic starter apartment in a complex works out at less than Euro 35,000 each. Selling them for Euro 300,000 means there is nearly 1000% profit to be divvied up among the various property parasites of one form or another.

2. There can never be any real scientific, rationalist basis for valuing land. There is only an 'accepted theory' that is promulgated by various interests. In reality, maybe everyone has a claim to the land... or it might be priceless as the Indians or aboriginees thought it...These questions were discussed at length during the 15th and 16th century by such writers and thinkers as Locke, Harrington, Rousseau, Hume, and others… However, it often appears to me as if only the sentiments expressed at this time which suited the interests of the property elite were taken as gospel, and other sentiments which did not fit were discarded (eg. Jean-Jaques Rousseau said of the first man who ever enclosed a piece of land as his own, “If only someone had pulled up the stakes and cried to his fellows: ‘You are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody!”)… Perhaps this debate should be re-ignited.

3. Equating property transactions on a labour basis, it takes around 2000 hours of labour (including manufacture and delivery of materials) to build a 'starter apartment' with latest building technologies. Then, estimating interest rates very conservatively at 4%, it will take someone on the average industrial wage well over 30,000 man hours of their labour to repay it. I believe that economics is on a basis of justice when one roughly receives one hour of labour for every hour of labour they contribute themselves. Of course there will be variances, but these should be very well debated and properly agreed upon.

4. As human-beings, we all have needs for shelter, security, and status. And it is land and property that can fulfill these needs. But it is now considered normal practice to play on these needs, and artificially boost the perceived value of land through sophisticated marketing and psychological manipulation, to serve certain financial interests. For example, the insidious phrase ‘property ladder’ is used to push the necessary psychological buttons to make people buy into the myth that property is a method to move higher in their overall development...

Now, the bankers and other very institutionalised people that have been running this country since some time after we got independence, are fighting for their own ‘institutionalised’ view of reality… Perhaps, many people will view me as naïve, but I think it is very important that their ‘view’ is fought against as hard as possible. We need to get through this crisis as well as we possibly can, and that includes the big picture and long term view.

Independence, maybe thats where we went wrong

Invite the English back!

Sorry. these institutionaliused people were running the place before independence also... Don't think the english would do us any favours?!

Unfortunately you cant change the world. It all went "wrong" years ago, way before the current crisis when banks realised that not every loan need be repaid and that there was more money to be made from the additional credit advanced than the corresponding increase in bad debts. The latest fiasco is simply the banks mistaking their risk in carrying this on a bit too much.

But, most of the people seem to prefer shiny new things at the expense of their long term financial status. A lot of people will get wiped, our generations will never forget this panic but the banks will repair their balance sheets, the executives who lived through it will be replaced by a new generation of fearless pinstriped suits and we will have a new generation of young people who dont understand the reality of debt. C'est la vie.

It's a question of finding the right balance... It's been too far one way for too long... It needs a push the other way, and not let them push it even further (way) than it already was..

Great idea, bring the Brits back, land them with the debt and then kick them out again
oh and keep them long enough to build that underground train system

The Irish Banks will have to begin mergers and aquisitions immediately as this country with a population of 4 million is unable to compete with England's pupulation of 64 million. Our Banks will have to get off the fence with their life support Guarantee from the people and moove quickly. Anglo and IN and ILP and other weak ones will have to merge with the Strong ones. It must be done right away to stop their weaknessess putting strain on our Insurance.
The Irish Banks should be forced to pay the premiums for the State Guarantee. They should be levied a % for this and given a Tax Rebate on the Insurance premium. Who will be the Underwriters for the Premium?

I suppose thats what is actually happening already, economically... UK depositers are dumping their cash in the banks, who then use it for new FTBers, get the developers out of trouble etc... When it eventually all comes crashing down around their ears again down the line, do you think the government will be able to honour their guarantee??!!

I'd be interested in where you gt your figures from or what exactly you mean by "Pure building costs" and definition of labour.
Given 2000 hours is about 1 year of labour and the average industrial wage is about 35k. I can't really reconcile these two points.
Like the concepts and idealism tho!

The opening post is spot on in my view. According to my reading around on this topic it takes around 50,000 euros to build a 1000 foot 2 bed apartment in a complex, possibly a bit less. What has happened over the last ten years is philosophically bankrupt and economically illiterate. Quite simply given the short time we have on this earth and given the opportunities that were otherwise available to us what has occurred is infantile. Infantile that is from one point of view, malevolent from another. The vested interests and moral pygmies that we are up against are a vicious breed. We should use all means that are available to us in this changed climate to try and bring them down and show some sort of enlightened and informed alternative to the people of the country. Aggressive anger that seeks to demolish these people through targetted actions and debate will be a great deal more useful to our country than the kind of simpering impotence that is a hallmark of the establishment 'opposition' as they seek to finesse their way to power.
Central to such efforts should be an assault on the media and a real attempt to wrest control of public debate from the current gateway keepers. An informed and passionate critique of the current economic illiteracy should also be brought to the forefront of public debate. Instead, even at this time of unprecendented economic cirisis, we are being presented with yet another tranche of stockbrokers and similar grey-suited, grey-minded guttersnipes by the establishment media.

While I agree that property values have been excessive in Ireland for some time and I further believe that wage infaltion to cope with this excess is a large part of 'our' * lack of competitiveness I don't see the point of this discussion.

The Irish people have elected a government which is commited to high property prices. Talking about grey suited guttersnipes is silly and intemperate. The reality is that property prices WILL fall sharply and that as negative equity begins to bite political pressure will arise for some sort of relief for those 'trapped' in negative equity.

I would sugegst that writing angry messages on an Internet Board is the least productive expression of your anger possible.

I would suggest that you are incorrect. I have informed myself over the past 3 years via the internet about the facts of the economic situation that we now find ourselves in. I was already aware 3 years ago from reading what you might refer to as 'silly and intemperate' commentators (people such as Mike Whitney who call for the criminals to be jailed) that the system was bound to come to this point. I was aware 2 years ago from reading such commentators when the crisis would come (it would begin in earnest with the resetting of the highest wave of ARMs in the US in srping of last year), why it would come and how it would come. Informing myself via the internet has shown to me the invaluable tool the internet can be for an individual informing themselves. All these peoples' analyses and predictions have been correct. Set that against the fairytale version of reality pushed by the likes of RTÉ and the newspapers and it is clear that the internet is a tremendous tool for education.

I am now ready to begin to do something in actual fact and I see that a number of other people on the pin feel the same way. In my case it is doubtful that I would have felt this way if I had not already informed myself of the what was coming over the last 3 years via the net. The net is now becoming, through our willingness to actually get off our asses and become politically active, an active force. There is no comparison between the information available on the internet and the information available via the establishment media. The one is truly informative, the other is spreading misinformation in a criminal manner for the purposes of protecting certain small numbers of vested interests and is prepared to throw the bulk of the population to the wolves to achieve that. It must be challenged and its authority in the eyes of the public brought down.

As for 'silly and intemeprate'; I have often noticed that the Irish impose a demand for anemic and enfeebled language upon themselves when challenging the status quo. It seems to be a prerequisite for being taken seriously in Ireland, for if you do not do this you are accused of being a trouble-maker, you are dismissed or accused of being 'silly and intemeprate'. Interestingly the only people who seem to defy this are Fianna Fáil, who are frequently sneering, aggressive and bullying. The 'opposition' (sic) remain within the limits of enfeebled language in order to be 'taken seriously'.

And where has this got them, eh? Do the Irish know the difference between real silliness and passion? Are the Irish to perpetually condemn themselves to using a foreign language - english - to indirectly speak about things which are directly assaulting them at every moment? Are the Irish ever going to confront in language and thought as much as physically and in fact?

The opening post is very accurate. Thus to say you see no point in the discussion strikes me as intellectually sterile at the very least. The comparison of Irish commentary - political and economic - with similar commentary from the US or Britain highlights the utterly spineless and evasive nature of speech and thought in this country.

Grey men in grey suits thinking grey thoughts and given free access to pollute our airwaves with their despeartely limited infantilism is exactly what they are. Criminals and guttersnipes. Lets have at the bastards.

Welcome to the Pin, CC1!

I remember reading a biography of Michael Collins in which a scene unfolded in his office as first Minister for Finance in the nascent state.
A couple of senior bankers unhappy at developments tried to strongarm Collins into allowing them continue their laissaiz faire operations which they enjoyed before the war of Independence.Their threats of financial armageddon were overt and designed to intimidate Collins.
The biographer stated Collins merely told the men their banks would be nationalised and that he could not vouch for their personal safety when they left his office if they chose their way.
There was no more trouble from the bankers .