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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:39 pm 
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Property Magnate

Joined: Jan 31, 2009
Posts: 629
TheEmigrant wrote:
All "Defined Benefit" pensions should be made illegal for both the public and private sector. This would prevent future pension bubbles. Too late now though - they will shortly cause a collapse of most Western nations.


I think you'll find that a lot of people join the public service, and have "enjoyed" the traditional lower pay precisely because they know that they will have a pension in their old age. It's a career decision, but only works out if you join relatively young. If you join the public service at an older age, you still get defined benefit, but it may not be much of a benefit, unless you climb quickly up the ladder.
However, what really gets my goat with people like the Emigrant is the implication behind their thinking - it is basically "fuck everyone but myself".
Personally, I believe that a society has a duty to everyone who lives in it, and must look after the weaker members and those who have made their contribution, or who aren't able to make a contribution. In my working life I have spent equal periods in public and private employment. In the private sector, unless you work in a large company, you are treated as totally dispensable, and most employers that I have worked for are only interested in what they can get out of you. They are happy to flout laws, pay you under the table, and use any other method they can to cut costs. One of these is not making pension contributions of any sort.
Certainly, there is a cost to providing pensions for people, but there is also a cost to not providing them. TheEmigrant, are you suggesting that, for instance, your parents be turfed out onto the street, or starved to death because you don't want society as a whole to pay for their upkeep? Because I think that is the logical conclusion to the route you are suggesting. Then again, maybe you are so wealthy, or you come from such a wealthy family that you don't need to worry about little things like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:37 pm 
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Speculator

Joined: Dec 23, 2008
Posts: 499
Well I am sure Emigrant is a big lad who knows what he said and what he didnt say, and will explain it in more detail...

But sorry I think you are trying to put words in his mouth?

Saying that the DB schemes simply will not and cannot work given our demographics and market history, and trying to honour the DB pensions may well destroy us all is NOT the same as promoting euthanasia a la "Logans run" or whatever else you are trying to say he said?

When a boatload of people are washed up on a desert island for an indefinite period and the captain then promises everyone all the food and water they could want for as long as they are on the island, someone at the back pointing out that there is isnt enough to go round so stop making crazy promises is not the same as saying "lets kill and eat the weakest people"?


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:28 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Sep 14, 2009
Posts: 1946
Cash King's desert island analogy is perfect. The public sector (and some private sector companies) are making promises they cannot keep. Defined contribution pensions bring clarity and realism. Defined Benefit pensions bring a huge burden to next generation - causing them to be thrown out on the streets and to die of starvation.

So the only logical conclusion is that Mantach wants to see your kids grow up and starve to death after they have been turfed out onto the streets in a world full of wealthy retired Public Sector landlords.


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:42 am 
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Old Time Landlord

Joined: Jan 13, 2009
Posts: 381
Guys, the problem is an economic system based on inflation, for the sake of the banking and financial systems, at the expense of the rest of the economy, and vast majority of the population.
Question for TheEmigrant, what would it happen if we have an economic system without inflation?


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:01 pm 
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Posts: 1946
javishka wrote:
Guys, the problem is an economic system based on inflation, for the sake of the banking and financial systems, at the expense of the rest of the economy, and vast majority of the population.
Question for TheEmigrant, what would it happen if we have an economic system without inflation?


Inflation can be viewed as a tax by the government on the holders of cash. I don't see the economic system changing drastically if this tax was removed.


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:07 pm 
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Joined: May 3, 2008
Posts: 2056
Don't you love it when you solve two problems at once?

According to the Sunday Times (page 1 of the Business section..sorry no link) the irish pensions industry has the answers.

Brian can't get anyone except the ECB to buy his bonds and their funds are can't earn enough returns to pay out to retired members.

The solution to release money "tied up" in German and French bonds at 2%-3% and get some of those tasty yields on Irish debt.

Hey Presto the pension funds are solvent again an Brian gets access to €20bn.

Enough money to maintain the status quo for about 12 months.

What could possibly go wrong?

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"Bankruptcies of governments have, on the whole, done less harm to mankind than their ability to raise loans."- R.H. Tawney, Religion and the Rise of Capitalism, 1926

"By a continuing process of inflation, government can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens.- John Maynard Keynes, Economic Consequences of Peace


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:13 pm 
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Speculator

Joined: Dec 23, 2008
Posts: 499
what was once unthinkable is becoming both thinkable and sayable....

chip, chip, chip away....

http://money-news.dailyfinance.co.uk/ar ... ons_report


Former Labour minister Lord Hutton said long-term structural reform was needed to public sector pensions, including an end to the current final salary schemes.

He called for a new model of pensions to be introduced that shared the risk more fairly between the Government and workers.

But he ruled out replacing final salary pensions with individual funded defined contribution ones - under which the employee bears all the risk - as has happened in much of the private sector.
Lord Hutton said he would consider a range of alternatives in his final report, including a career average scheme, under which pensions are based on a worker's average pay during their career, rather than their salary immediately before they retire.

Other options include hybrid schemes, which share the risk, and collective or notional defined contribution pensions.

He added that if the Government wanted to make short-term savings, it should raise pension contribution rates for workers.

But he stressed that it should protect the low-paid from the increases and not hike rates for the armed forces at this time.

Lord Hutton was commissioned to carry out the review by Chancellor George Osborne, who warned that the "unsustainable" rise in the annual bill for public sector schemes must be tackled.

Lord Hutton said he did not want to see "good, decent people" facing poverty in retirement, but he stressed that the problem could not be "buried" any longer because of the problems being stored up.


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:01 pm 
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Speculator

Joined: Dec 23, 2008
Posts: 499
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... tml?via=mr

Ireland's welfare and pension bills are “on the table” in discussions on the four-year plan to be announced next month, and in the December budget, Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan said yesterday in New York.

“We have already reduced public service pay by nearly 14 per cent on average . . . Likewise, we’ve looked at our welfare bill, at our pensions bill. All of these areas will have to be looked at. They’re on the table,” Mr Lenihan said.

A spokesman for Mr Lenihan said afterwards that the Minister was referring to “the medium and long- term cost of pensions”.

The exchequer spent just over €9 billion this year on public sector pensions, as well as those paid through the social welfare system.

It is understood that new measures might affect tax treatment of pensions, such as tax allowances given against pensions.

The Government has already changed the rules for new entrants to the public service, and there may be a re-examination of what they qualify for in the future.

The European Commission was not negotiating a plan with the Irish Government to reduce the deficit, a Commission spokesman said today.

“We are not telling the Irish Government what kind of budgetary measures it has to take. It was not the Commission’s job to be prescriptive,” said Amadeu Altafaj Tardio, the spokesman for the EU Economic Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn.

“Our role is to assess whether these measures are effective in order to make sure the budgetary targets are met,” he told RTE’s Morning Ireland.

A series of proposals for the forthcoming budget will be put forward this morning at the annual pre-budget conference organised by the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI).


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:12 pm 
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Holiday Home Owner

Joined: Jul 4, 2009
Posts: 324
Mantach wrote:

I think you'll find that a lot of people join the public service, and have "enjoyed" the traditional lower pay precisely because they know that they will have a pension in their old age. It's a career decision, but only works out if you join relatively young. If you join the public service at an older age, you still get defined benefit, but it may not be much of a benefit, unless you climb quickly up the ladder..


Hasn't nearly every survey found that public pay here is higher than private pay? Plus the pension.

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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:52 pm 
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Nationalised

Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 28848
Location: Tullamore
Quote:
The exchequer spent just over €9 billion this year on public sector pensions, as well as those paid through the social welfare system.

Surely some mistake? Or is it just a badly placed comma?

Quote:
The Government has already changed the rules for new entrants to the public service, and there may be a re-examination of what they qualify for in the future.

Thank the unions, they have the interests of the low-paid, er, the existing senior members at heart...

I hope they now introduce a two-tier funding scheme for PS pensions, so that those paying average salary pay less...

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"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:21 pm 
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Single Home Owner

Joined: Jul 19, 2007
Posts: 126
Puck may be Famous wrote:
Don't you love it when you solve two problems at once?

According to the Sunday Times (page 1 of the Business section..sorry no link) the irish pensions industry has the answers.

Brian can't get anyone except the ECB to buy his bonds and their funds are can't earn enough returns to pay out to retired members.

The solution to release money "tied up" in German and French bonds at 2%-3% and get some of those tasty yields on Irish debt.

Hey Presto the pension funds are solvent again an Brian gets access to €20bn.

Enough money to maintain the status quo for about 12 months.

What could possibly go wrong?


It's worse than that. What the pension industry want is a change in pensions legislation to allow them to pass the default risk on to the pensioners. The Sunday Business Post had this last week:

The Sunday Business Post wrote:
The main problem with the proposal [to invest in Irish bonds] is that the interest rate on Irish government bonds is very high because there is a perceived risk that the Irish state might default on its obligations.

The pensions industry suggests that legislation would have to be amended to allow annuity payments to be cut if the underlying government bonds do not perform as anticipated.

In short, if the state were to default, then pensioners would lose out.


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:42 pm 
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Speculator

Joined: Dec 23, 2008
Posts: 499
trouble at the BBC.....basically, pensions being unilaterally downgraded...?

Am just recording the constant chip chip chip on this thread, hope that is ok.

http://news.aol.co.uk/main-news/story/b ... %2F1361386


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:19 pm 
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Nationalised

Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 28848
Location: Tullamore
Cash King wrote:
trouble at the BBC.....basically, pensions being unilaterally downgraded...?

Am just recording the constant chip chip chip on this thread, hope that is ok.

http://news.aol.co.uk/main-news/story/b ... %2F1361386

Perfectly fine.

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"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:25 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance
User avatar

Joined: Nov 6, 2006
Posts: 7126
Location: Australia
Quote:
One in six people in the UK today will live to 100, study says


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/3 ... e-live-100

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 Post subject: Re: Pension Time Bomb Dwarfs Banking Crisis
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:39 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Feb 1, 2008
Posts: 2399
Location: God's Country
Quote:
One in six people in the UK today will live to 100


Oh Noah they won't!
They'll live even LONGER!!

Genesis, Chapter 9 wrote:
    And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
    And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: then he died.


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