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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:15 am 
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Holiday Home Owner

Joined: Dec 23, 2008
Posts: 332
You do not need to go to Germany to open an account. You have two options; go to the embassy with the forms amd passports etc or go to a local notary who will stamp and seal the docs. I think it would be cheaper to go to the embassy but they have limited opening hours. I went to a notary and got the forms sealed etc. Account is open and ready to go. No need to leave Ireland. Notary will charge you about 50 euro


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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:55 am 
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Real Estate Developer

Joined: Nov 17, 2008
Posts: 977
I have read through this and find it confusing. Has anyone got an even dummier guide to understanding/buying german bonds please?


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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:53 pm 
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Migrant

Joined: Sep 30, 2010
Posts: 3
fitw wrote:
You do not need to go to Germany to open an account. You have two options; go to the embassy with the forms amd passports etc or go to a local notary who will stamp and seal the docs. I think it would be cheaper to go to the embassy but they have limited opening hours. I went to a notary and got the forms sealed etc. Account is open and ready to go. No need to leave Ireland. Notary will charge you about 50 euro


Not sure how that worked with the notary, ie was the german Finanzagentur satisfied with your ID authentication from some unknown "notary" source here and all in English, or what was the notary authenticating since all application forms & docs etc were in german ..would they not have had to be properly translated first? But hey, if you got them to accept it fair play to you.

Regarding authentication through the german embassy here, I had already tried that just recently and got the following reply...

"as weird as this sounds. There has been a change in law which since may forbid German consulates or Embassies to do such legitimations in relation to bank matters. It was most probably not intended as such but it up till now, binds our hands. Maybe you could take up that matter again with the "Finanzagentur" and they might get any other approval of
your signature."


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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:55 pm 
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Migrant

Joined: Sep 30, 2010
Posts: 3
honeysuckle wrote:
I have read through this and find it confusing. Has anyone got an even dummier guide to understanding/buying german bonds please?

The main Finanzagentur webpage has pages in english, so far so good.
http://www.deutsche-finanzagentur.de/en ... investors/

However they also link out to german pages for the juicy bits http://www.bundeswertpapiere.de/de/tagesanleihe/ so use some form of online translator such as http://translate.google.com/#de|en| to initially muddle your way through, and/or get someone who understands a bit more german than Mr Google above :-) to help at some point. Any queries you can always email to the Finanzagentur in english i would imagine and they would also reply in same (don't mention the war! :-))

If you can get a notary to validate your Passport details etc here as another poster has suggested and they will accept that, then you're home & dry, otherwise you will have to travel to Gemany. You either visit the Agentur personally in Frankfurt, or you go to any german post office and have your passport details etc validated through a standard accepted procedure they call Post Ident, whereby the post clerk validates your ID, notes your Irish address and sends this along with your already completed bank application form directly to the Agentur for you, and Hey Presto!

At some stage you will have arranged how to access your account online and then you can buy/sell bonds to your hearts content totally for free without any costs. The a/c you open is called a "Schuldbuchkonto" (or "debt register account" acc to Mr Google), and this same a/c is used to transfer money into each time you wish to buy any type of bond. You use the same IBAN & BIC in each case, but you just alter the Description/Purpose details according to an existing code they have, depending on what particular bond type you wish to purchase, ie code 34 for 1 year bonds, or code 67 for 1 day etc.

I was interested in their type of 1 day bond or "Tagesanleihe", which is more or less an instant access savings a/c which can be liquidated daily but is held not with a private bank but with the german state just like any german bonds. Plus side is instant access & security, downside the low interest rate (last week 0.71% today 0.43%) which is directly linked to the Eonia rate, minus 0.15%, which changes daily.

..hope that was dumb enough :-)


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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:26 pm 
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Real Estate Developer

Joined: Nov 17, 2008
Posts: 977
Bcommercial wrote:
honeysuckle wrote:
I have read through this and find it confusing. Has anyone got an even dummier guide to understanding/buying german bonds please?

The main Finanzagentur webpage has pages in english, so far so good.
http://www.deutsche-finanzagentur.de/en ... investors/

However they also link out to german pages for the juicy bits http://www.bundeswertpapiere.de/de/tagesanleihe/ so use some form of online translator such as http://translate.google.com/#de|en| to initially muddle your way through, and/or get someone who understands a bit more german than Mr Google above :-) to help at some point. Any queries you can always email to the Finanzagentur in english i would imagine and they would also reply in same (don't mention the war! :-))

If you can get a notary to validate your Passport details etc here as another poster has suggested and they will accept that, then you're home & dry, otherwise you will have to travel to Gemany. You either visit the Agentur personally in Frankfurt, or you go to any german post office and have your passport details etc validated through a standard accepted procedure they call Post Ident, whereby the post clerk validates your ID, notes your Irish address and sends this along with your already completed bank application form directly to the Agentur for you, and Hey Presto!

At some stage you will have arranged how to access your account online and then you can buy/sell bonds to your hearts content totally for free without any costs. The a/c you open is called a "Schuldbuchkonto" (or "debt register account" acc to Mr Google), and this same a/c is used to transfer money into each time you wish to buy any type of bond. You use the same IBAN & BIC in each case, but you just alter the Description/Purpose details according to an existing code they have, depending on what particular bond type you wish to purchase, ie code 34 for 1 year bonds, or code 67 for 1 day etc.

I was interested in their type of 1 day bond or "Tagesanleihe", which is more or less an instant access savings a/c which can be liquidated daily but is held not with a private bank but with the german state just like any german bonds. Plus side is instant access & security, downside the low interest rate (last week 0.71% today 0.43%) which is directly linked to the Eonia rate, minus 0.15%, which changes daily.

..hope that was dumb enough :-)


yes many thanks, here have a BD on me.


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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:29 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Jul 24, 2007
Posts: 2190
fitw wrote:
You do not need to go to Germany to open an account. You have two options; go to the embassy with the forms amd passports etc or go to a local notary who will stamp and seal the docs. I think it would be cheaper to go to the embassy but they have limited opening hours. I went to a notary and got the forms sealed etc. Account is open and ready to go. No need to leave Ireland. Notary will charge you about 50 euro


I understand this to be essentially an online trading account. I expect you have to transfer/interpay money from your Irish bank account into this "debit register account". Once you purchase and subsequently sell the bonds. Can you provide your Irish bank account details to transfer the money back to Ireland or how does that work?


As this thred is not exclusively about German bonds but rather 'disaster wealth management' what other alternativeas are available.

Do Irish banks provide safety deposit boxes (like you see in the American films) a quick google search seems to indicate no :( .If not avialble in Ireland what about other foreign or EU countries? If so would it be easier to just get a wedge of €500 notes and stash them in deposit box?

Anyone know anything about/ have any opinions on Keytrade looks like an easy way moving and storing money in an EU based bank.


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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:40 pm 
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IMF'd

Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 31408
Location: Tullamore
See earlier in the thread for Keytrade.

You can't directly transfer to Rabo, but you can to a, for example, BoI account. Take a while to transfer (about five working days). Security seems to be fine (with an RSA keycode for login). No problems getting salary/invoices paid in there. It's within MiFid so transfers are free (with IBAN/BIC codes).

The interface is fine. You can save transfer payee details so you don't have to set them up again. I haven't tried any of the trading on it yet.

I've been trying to get the Amex Blue application form in English with no luck yet. Might have to get a friendly French speaker help me out with it.

You'll have to declare any interest you get on a tax return as DIRT is not deducted autotragically, so if you have significant sums and don't already do a tax return that is a slight extra burden.

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"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:39 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Jul 24, 2007
Posts: 2190
yoganmahew wrote:
The interface is fine. You can save transfer payee details so you don't have to set them up again. I haven't tried any of the trading on it yet.

I've been trying to get the Amex Blue application form in English with no luck yet. Might have to get a friendly French speaker help me out with it.

You'll have to declare any interest you get on a tax return as DIRT is not deducted autotragically, so if you have significant sums and don't already do a tax return that is a slight extra burden.


Just to be clear are you referring to the keytrade interface or the German bond account interface?


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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:22 pm 
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IMF'd

Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 31408
Location: Tullamore
Roadhouse wrote:
yoganmahew wrote:
The interface is fine. You can save transfer payee details so you don't have to set them up again. I haven't tried any of the trading on it yet.

I've been trying to get the Amex Blue application form in English with no luck yet. Might have to get a friendly French speaker help me out with it.

You'll have to declare any interest you get on a tax return as DIRT is not deducted autotragically, so if you have significant sums and don't already do a tax return that is a slight extra burden.


Just to be clear are you referring to the keytrade interface or the German bond account interface?

Sorry, my post is all related to keytrade. There are a couple of earlier posts in the thread related to it too.

_________________
"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:27 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Jul 24, 2007
Posts: 2190
fitw wrote:
You do not need to go to Germany to open an account. You have two options; go to the embassy with the forms amd passports etc or go to a local notary who will stamp and seal the docs. I think it would be cheaper to go to the embassy but they have limited opening hours. I went to a notary and got the forms sealed etc. Account is open and ready to go. No need to leave Ireland. Notary will charge you about 50 euro

Hi fitw,
Could you please go into a bit more detail. Specifically what forms did you complete I'm guessing the "application for opening a debt register account", "application to access BWp-direct" and possibly "instruction to exempt investment from withholding tax at source" What about verifying your ID, the form there seems to refer specifically to the PostIdent system -i.e. used by the post office. is this the one you used? Or does the notary have an iternationallt recognised, ID verification form? What about the stamping and sealing process, does the notory have some internationally recognised stamp. Was the notary familiar enough with the process? Did he have any reservations about the forms being in German?
link to forms


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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:55 pm 
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Old Time Landlord

Joined: Jan 31, 2007
Posts: 375
Just out of curiosity why would you buy 10yr bonds (at 2.5%) when the yield curve goes up to 3% for the 20 year? (from the perspective of a retail investor)

see: http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates- ... s/germany/


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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:01 pm 
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Joined: Oct 17, 2007
Posts: 2179
Rarely wrote:
Just out of curiosity why would you buy 10yr bonds (at 2.5%) when the yield curve goes up to 3% for the 20 year? (from the perspective of a retail investor)

see: http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates- ... s/germany/


The coupon is set... so the yield depends on what the bonds are trading at.
The 30 years comes in below 3% again for instance...

I'm sure someone else will be able to explain it a little better though.


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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:34 pm 
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Real Estate Developer
User avatar

Joined: Nov 8, 2006
Posts: 982
yoganmahew wrote:
See earlier in the thread for Keytrade.

You can't directly transfer to Rabo, but you can to a, for example, BoI account. Take a while to transfer (about five working days). Security seems to be fine (with an RSA keycode for login). No problems getting salary/invoices paid in there. It's within MiFid so transfers are free (with IBAN/BIC codes).


yoganmahew, perhaps I dont understand you correctly here.
I called my bank (Ulster Bank) about this and they told me all transfers whether in MiFid or not using IBAN codes are chargeable.
Was the person I was talking to a wally, or am i misunderstanding what you wrote? BD

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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:48 pm 
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Old Time Landlord

Joined: Jan 31, 2007
Posts: 375
magoko101 wrote:
Rarely wrote:
Just out of curiosity why would you buy 10yr bonds (at 2.5%) when the yield curve goes up to 3% for the 20 year? (from the perspective of a retail investor)

see: http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates- ... s/germany/


The coupon is set... so the yield depends on what the bonds are trading at.
The 30 years comes in below 3% again for instance...

I'm sure someone else will be able to explain it a little better though.


Thanks for that.

My question was slightly different though. Why would a retail investor not buy the maturity that is giving the highest yield - I.e. the 20 yr. at the moment?


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 Post subject: Re: German Bonds for Dummies
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:51 pm 
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IMF'd

Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 31408
Location: Tullamore
Longtermrenter wrote:
yoganmahew wrote:
See earlier in the thread for Keytrade.

You can't directly transfer to Rabo, but you can to a, for example, BoI account. Take a while to transfer (about five working days). Security seems to be fine (with an RSA keycode for login). No problems getting salary/invoices paid in there. It's within MiFid so transfers are free (with IBAN/BIC codes).


yoganmahew, perhaps I dont understand you correctly here.
I called my bank (Ulster Bank) about this and they told me all transfers whether in MiFid or not using IBAN codes are chargeable.
Was the person I was talking to a wally, or am i misunderstanding what you wrote? BD

Well, what they are not permitted to do is charge more than they do for domestic transfers. So if they are attempting to charge more than that, yes, they are wrong. If you are transferring euro to euro and you supply IBAN and BIC, they cannot charge you the usual 'international transfer' fee.

edit: so far as I know!!

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"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


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