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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Key 'step forward' in cutting cost of removing CO2 from air - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44396781

And it's byproduct is liquid fuel, ICE isn't dead yet


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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:04 am 
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Reduction in renewable power levy could cut €213m from bills

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/ene ... -1.3522996

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The energy regulator plans to cut the State’s renewable power levy in a move that will slice a potential €213 million from electricity bills.


Quote:
Interested parties have until June 29th to respond to the CRU’s proposal. The regulator will decide on the levy decrease in August and implement the new charge in October.


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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:52 pm 
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Latest Solar PV contracts to charge 2.6 - 3 cents / kwh.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/warren-buff ... lar-95208/

A modern natural gas plant generates it for 3 cents / kWh. How long before all other fossil fuel forms of generating elicrtcity are made economically obsolete?

Not sure to put this in the Tesla or Peak Oil thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Terra Incognita wrote:
Latest Solar PV contracts to charge 2.6 - 3 cents / kwh.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/warren-buff ... lar-95208/

A modern natural gas plant generates it for 3 cents / kWh. How long before all other fossil fuel forms of generating elicrtcity are made economically obsolete?

Not sure to put this in the Tesla or Peak Oil thread.

The main issue is availability at peak times. It creates a duck curve from demand supply mismatch. The cost needs to account for storage if possible plus storage losses. Probably we would need north of 3 GW of storage too handle peak supplies. Someone with a bit more knowledge will correct me no doubt.

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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:16 am 
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werpen wrote:
The main issue is availability at peak times. It creates a duck curve from demand supply mismatch. The cost needs to account for storage if possible plus storage losses. Probably we would need north of 3 GW of storage too handle peak supplies. Someone with a bit more knowledge will correct me no doubt.

Probably the CO2 capture -> fuel from renewable water splitting is the most interesting storage method I've seen recently. Not in terms of ICE, but in terms of ramp-up power.

I also think that Peter F. Hamilton has it right, and I'm currently buying mid-Atlantic real estate... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:45 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
werpen wrote:
The main issue is availability at peak times. It creates a duck curve from demand supply mismatch. The cost needs to account for storage if possible plus storage losses. Probably we would need north of 3 GW of storage too handle peak supplies. Someone with a bit more knowledge will correct me no doubt.

Probably the CO2 capture -> fuel from renewable water splitting is the most interesting storage method I've seen recently. Not in terms of ICE, but in terms of ramp-up power.

Do you mean this one? ...

owenm wrote:
Key 'step forward' in cutting cost of removing CO2 from air - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44396781
And it's byproduct is liquid fuel, ICE isn't dead yet

I'm quite dubious. They've been developing it for nine years and have had their prototype plant running for six and a half. What stopped them from moving to commercialisation in the mean time, and why are they only putting out a paper with costs now? Plus those costs are only nailed down to within a factor of three.

The problem I see is that it bolts (at least) two unrelated processes together. Why make your fuel out of captured carbon when you can make it out of plentifully available rocks? Just burn limestone to produce CO2 for your fuel. Most people realise that ordinary rocks don't burn, so might smell a rat when it comes to the efficiency of the process. And they'd be right -- calcination of limestone needs a source of heat (178.3 kJ/mol) to liberate CO2, not to mention further energy to synthesise fuel. Whatever heat is liberated by burning the fuel to CO2 is what's required to reconstitute it, assuming a 100% efficient process. And in this case they even have to make the limestone first, by reducing potassium carbonate to hydroxide first to liberate carbonate ions. What's the bets that all that heat liberated in the air contactor with its large surface area is lost to the environment? So the system is a closed cycle for the chemicals, but certainly not for energy. That's why they need a free source of waste heat such as an incinerator to make the numbers add up.

Image

Another way to look at it is this: nobody's managed to do cost-effective CO2 sequestration even with the exhaust of a fossil fuel power plant, where you have a concentrated source of already hot CO2. What makes us think anyone can do it with the extremely rarefied source in air? The other Swiss crowd who are doing carbon capture from air reckon it'll take them until 2030 to get the cost down from $600/tCO2 to $100. Sounds suspiciously like one of those promises that "things will get better after fifteen years of subsidies ... honest!".

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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:14 pm 
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Drat :)

Okay, back to gold to lead transmutation...

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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Why isn't electricity cheaper?

Here's your answer > https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/crazy-maths-makes-nonsense-of-irish-climate-change-policy-1.3530732


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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Inis Man wrote:


Amazing, so by 2030 we will spend well over a billion euro on subsidies for burning peat for electricity

Why not stop this madness and use the money to convert Moneypoint to Natural gas and build an LNG terminal

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Last edited by the dude on Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:48 pm 
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the dude wrote:
Inis Man wrote:


Amazing, so by 2030 we will spend well over a billion euro on subsidies for burning peat for electricity

Why not stop this madness and use the money to convert Moneypoint to Natural gas and build an LNG ternimal


That is nuts. Imagine where we would be by 2030 if we spent €100m a year of that money on solar and battery storage. We would probably be energy independent by that stage but instead we will still be burning peat to keep the lights on.

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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Surprise surprise government subsidies are misallocated, lol


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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:12 pm 
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Terra Incognita wrote:
the dude wrote:
Inis Man wrote:


Amazing, so by 2030 we will spend well over a billion euro on subsidies for burning peat for electricity

Why not stop this madness and use the money to convert Moneypoint to Natural gas and build an LNG ternimal


That is nuts. Imagine where we would be by 2030 if we spent €100m a year of that money on solar and battery storage. We would probably be energy independent by that stage but instead we will still be burning peat to keep the lights on.

ESB's two peat stations have a PSO until end 2019. At that point there won't be a subsidy for burning peat there. Bord na Mona's Edenderry power station doesn't receive a PSO payment for burning Peat. That ended in December 2015.

There is a subsidy for biomass co-firing to 2030 but not peat. BnM burnt 450,000 tonnes of biomass (for the time being considered zero carbon) in 2016 and presumably burnt peat additionally when it was profitable for them to do so. There is no obligation on BnM to burn an equivalent tonnage of peat with the biomass so they could fire in a tonne of peat across the year and be eligible. They only get the subsidy on each MWh of energy produced by Biomass.

While John Fitzgerald may not like peat generation, he is incorrect to say it is being subsidised to 2030...biomass is where the subsidy is going and its not at the same value as the current PSO subsidy. I presume he is of the view that the biomass subsidy is an enabler of peat generation...it may well be but it doesn't require it.


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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:34 pm 
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When you see the growth in the renewables portion of the PSO, it is a good reason to be wary of subsidising any technologies like solar and batteries. Here's a link to a PSO type competition for solar in Nevada. While the solar incidence in Nevada must be higher than here, it shows that these types of technologies won't always need a subsidy and if we subsidise them, the price will rise to the level of the subsidy. Can you imagine the cost to the country if we had decided to subsidise solar in 2010 at over $100/MWh rather than waiting 5 years for it to halve or 8 years for it to quarter in price. We don't manufacture solar panels or batteries so we shouldn't be first off the mark to subsidise them.
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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:38 pm 
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what is the PSO for? the consistency of supply/baseload?

so in other words highly intermittent supply- i.e. particularly solar is not comparable


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 Post subject: Re: Why isn't electricity cheaper?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Terra Incognita wrote:
Imagine where we would be by 2030 if we spent €100m a year of that money on solar and battery storage. We would probably be energy independent by that stage but instead we will still be burning peat to keep the lights on.


You're probably out by about two orders of magnitude there, but a fair point!

I would happily pay a levy for things that actually improved security of supply, like an LNG terminal or bunker storage for fuels.

Subsidising peat plants is also particularly galling when you think that (by global standards) Irish motorists are very heavily taxed for things like driving to work.


Although its abhoreent, the PSO levy is as least transparent. Designing a grid around intermittent wind it also costly - but in a murky way - and is one of the reasons Irish consumers pay the highest prices (net of taxes) on electricity in Europe.


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