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 Post subject: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:06 am 
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2011

Quote:
Almost half the Irish population is now in receipt of a social welfare payment from the government as the recession deepens.

Shockingly, a third of all money spent by the Irish state in 2010 went to welfare recipients.

Figures from the Department of Social Protection confirm that a whopping $29.3billion was paid by the Irish government to welfare recipients in 2010.

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Welfar ... z2XYdtjiED
Follow us: @IrishCentral on Twitter | IrishCentral on Facebook


2012

Quote:
THE Government has been warned about the need to reform the welfare system to eliminate poverty traps and broaden the tax base
......
the European Commission says more needs to be done to alleviate and eliminate the problems caused by some features of the social welfare system


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/eu-warns ... m-1.544170


2013
Image

http://www.google.com/publicdata/explor ... &ind=false

Minimum wage by purchasing power:
Image

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com.au/2009/08/economics-14082009-irish-welfare-rates.html

Quote:
Our replacement net of tax wage - equalizing the value of benefits obtained by the welfare recipient (in the case of my model - single parent with one kid) to make them even with the wage earner - now stands at €31,102.

The above figure is not inclusive of Income Taxes, Income Levies, PRSI and Health Levy contributions exacted by the state off those working. So let us add this to the numbers above.

For PAYE:

Health levy adds 4% on all earnings below €75,036;
PRSI levy adds another 4%
Income tax and Levies (here) - €31,102 after tax is consistent with the pre-tax earnings of €39,870pa

Replacement wage for PAYE (inc PRSI and Health Levy): €43,059.60.

For Self-Employed person:

Health levy adds 3.333% on all earnings below €75,036;
PRSI levy adds another 5%.

Replacement wage for Self-Employed (inc PRSI and Health Levy): €43,191.17.

If we are to recognise that a self-employed person has to cover some of the costs of their work out of pocket, say 25% of the net revenue received in income (a conservative assumption if you need to operate some equipment, run a van etc), a self-employed person working in this country would have to generate around €54,000 in revenue in order to come close to breaking even with a welfare recipient!


Image


Quote:
Pre-tax average wages by sector (for All workers and for lower grade of P&M Workers):

Industry: All employees = €42,078 pa (-€981pa relative to a welfare recipient), Production & Manual Workers = €34,507 (-€8,552pa);
Mining & Quarrying: All = €40,435 pa (-€2,624pa), P&M Workers = €36,878 (-€6,181pa);
Manufacturing: All = €41,184 pa (-€1,875pa), P&M Workers = €33,675 (-€9.384pa);
Electricity, Gas & Water Supply, Waste: All = €55,286 pa (+€12,227 pa), P&M Workers = €46,592 pa (+€3,533pa);
Financial & Insurance Services: All = €56,742 pa (+€13,683pa), P&M Workers = €34,445 pa (-€8,614pa).
Minimum wage earners €17,992 pa (-€25,068pa worse off working than being on welfare).


Quote:
Welfare spending now accounts for over 70% of the annual Exchequer tax intake. It is more than 37% of our current expenditure bill.

That is a disaster on the same scale as NAMA.


Quote:
95,000 households are supported by rent supplement, which the Department of Social Protection says is about half of the total private rented market in Ireland.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0610/132059-rent/


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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:20 am 
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I hear austerity isn't working.

That suits austerity, it's a grand number


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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:29 am 
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the liquidator wrote:
I hear austerity isn't working.

That suits austerity, it's a grand number


Unfortunately despite the cuts and tax hikes we have had no meaningful austerity with respect to the scale of the problems Ireland faces. NAMA, Welfare spending, Pensions crisis, the coming second banking crisis.

Look at the minimum wage map. We have more in common with the southern and eastern countries now. Yet we have changed nothing. People think they have seen terrible cuts but they pale in comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:29 am 
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This graph is crazy if what it is showing bears any resemblance to fact:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:48 am 
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http://www.thejournal.ie/many-would-be- ... 4-Jun2012/

Quote:
THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES would be better off on the dole rather than working, according to an ESRI study.

The working paper found that the cost of working in Ireland is around €140 per week – or €7000 per year – for an employed person without children, increasing to €9000 per year for a family with children.



Quote:
Expensive childcare is a major disincentive to work particularly for women. The study noted that Ireland has very expensive childcare, often costing around 30 per cent of a monthly wage.


People often jump on this and try to think up ways of subsidizing childcare. Instead of getting to the root of the problem like why do we have a surplus of workers and yet are unable to provide cheaper childcare we jump to throwing more good money down the drain increasing taxes and increasing the cost of living


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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:53 am 
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Clearly Irish people didn`t suddenly suffer a bout of laziness and all go on the dole. Irish people are hard working and have been very successful across the world. The fact that 300,000 emigrated abroad to work when they could have sat around and been comfortable enough on welfare shows it. People aspire to do better.

The problem here is the system and it is unaffordable. It is hard to defend the system too. Many will say welfare is so high because the cost of living is so high here, and they are correct. But they are linked as clearly demonstrated by the rent allowance figures and the fact that half of the population is in receipt of some form of welfare payment.

The inefficiencies here are colossal but because they are in depth reforms would yield colossal improvements.


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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:56 am 
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I suggest to any academics reading to get a Phd student to work on how much, in terms of GDP/reduced unemployment/reduced taxes etc our economy would benefit from sweeping reforms.


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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:36 pm 
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We should get rid of the minimum wage for a start.

We should also make it much easier to start up and expand a business in Ireland. Some minister awhile back suggested that businesses need anywhere up to 32 licenses in order to operate.

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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:46 pm 
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Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
We should get rid of the minimum wage for a start.

We should also make it much easier to start up and expand a business in Ireland. Some minister awhile back suggested that businesses need anywhere up to 32 licenses in order to operate.

Ireland is already one of the easiest countries in the world in which to start a business - measured by the relative lack of red tape. It might sound counterintuitive but it's confirmed regularly. The issue is not startup per se but rather things like rates, insurance costs, legal fees, lack of domestic investment, etc - all wider structural factors.


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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:21 pm 
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I actually started a thread for all things Social Welfare last week

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=60040&hilit=the+dsp+thread


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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:31 pm 
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jcsmith wrote:
Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
We should get rid of the minimum wage for a start.

We should also make it much easier to start up and expand a business in Ireland. Some minister awhile back suggested that businesses need anywhere up to 32 licenses in order to operate.

Ireland is already one of the easiest countries in the world in which to start a business - measured by the relative lack of red tape. It might sound counterintuitive but it's confirmed regularly. The issue is not startup per se but rather things like rates, insurance costs, legal fees, lack of domestic investment, etc - all wider structural factors.



As an SME owner, this is true. Starting a business is easy but expensive. We needed exactly one authorisation to operate, which generally can't be withheld and lots of people don't even bother getting. We also maybe require a second one. No one really knows. But again it can't be refused.

Remember that a very small business doesn't even need to register a trading name or for VAT if it doesn't want to.

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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:34 pm 
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Mantissa wrote:
As an SME owner, this is true. Starting a business is easy but expensive.

Closing one down is even pricier :(

I think the problem arises when you try and get beyond a small number of staff. The step up in time taken on the admin side is quite large.

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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:21 pm 
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Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
We should get rid of the minimum wage for a start.

We should also make it much easier to start up and expand a business in Ireland. Some minister awhile back suggested that businesses need anywhere up to 32 licenses in order to operate.


of all the rip offs in ireland and u start with the minimum wage. truly pathetic. id leave min wage until the very very end

i presume those pinsters dying to see the unemployed starve also object to the massive corporate welfare that has bankrupted the state?

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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:25 pm 
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Social welfare should be abolished across Europe just to see what happens....

For the craic like....

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 Post subject: Re: The Unaffordable Welfare State
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:31 pm 
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lord vader wrote:
i presume those pinsters dying to see the unemployed starve also object to the massive corporate welfare that has bankrupted the state?

Yeah, presumably they do. :roll:


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