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 Post subject: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:46 am 
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Interesting one this, especially if the practice is widespread.

The judge needs no introduction here...

Quote:

Top club operated under form of thieving -- judge


http://www.independent.ie/national-news ... 12904.html

By Tim Healy


Thursday January 14 2010

EXCLUSIVE private members' club 'Residence' operated under "a form of thieving" in which employees' tax contributions were used to subsidise the business, a court heard yesterday.

Residence directors, the well-known restaurant owners Simon and Christian Stokes, are seeking a continuation of court protection because of its financial difficulties. Residence opened in May 2008 and is a favourite haunt of celebrities and Dublin socialites.

Mr Justice Peter Kelly said it was effectively subsidised by the "hard-pressed Irish taxpayer" through employees' tax deductions not been passed on to the Revenue Commissioners, who were owed €1.2m.

He said it was "a form of thieving" to use employees' money deducted for PAYE and PRSI contributions to subsidise a business.

The laws on examinership were not intended to provide "a form of absolution for recalcitrant directors", the judge added.

After being told by chartered accountant Paul Wyse that many companies were "regrettably" doing the same thing, the judge said the accountancy description of such tax money as "working capital" appeared "extraordinary" and gave "a form of respectability to money being improperly used" by a company. Mr Wyse agreed.

>>>


And also in the IT

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/fin ... 92456.html


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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:51 am 
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Employee pension contributions are also routinely used as working capital...

It makes you wonder whether many of these companies even made money during the boom? And just how excessive rents are? (How unsustainable is the current pricing regime in retail?).

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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:18 am 
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Location: Over Macho Grande? I don't think I'll ever be over Macho Grande...
And they were siphoned off by a load of subbies and some big companies in construction... Of course, no money coming in now means that practice has since stopped... :nin

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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:30 am 
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Tha fact that it cropped up when they were looking for a VAT rebate is interesting. It is the regular VAT Audits that catch out people playing around with the books. The stress of dealing with the Revenue must be ferocious when you have char-grilled the books and served them on a bed of rocket with salsa verde. What a tangled web we weave...


I must say that I had a lovely meal in Bang a few years ago - it is always a pity to see restaurants serving good food go under.


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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:37 am 
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I am somewhat non-plussed as to how this isn't tax evasion, plain and simple. It is also incomprehensible to me how the owners of the club could not have been aware that this tax roll-over was going on....are they saying their accountants did this unilaterally?? I really don't know how that could have been possible.

Anyway, it's admirable that the Stokes brothers followed in their extremely successful fathers' footsteps and established their own - entirely, entirely separate - businesses: Cafe Bang, which is on the grounds of their aforementioned fathers' extremely successful restaurant, but which was wound up last week with considerable debts, as well as Residence, of which their father was a director until late last year, and which is situated about 50 yards from their fathers business, and which is now the subject of this case.

Nothing like breaking out and doing your own thing, eh?


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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:59 am 
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Must be great to be lectured on "forms of thieving" by judges who're paid a completely unjustifiable salary relative to any international standards, and many of whom were slow enough to contribute a pension levy equivalent, let alone the latest paycut.

Getting quite preachy now these judges, must help their sense of self importance that they no longer have to fight off the nouveau riche for the prime mansions around the country.


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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:05 am 
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sorehead wrote:
Must be great to be lectured on "forms of thieving" by judges who're paid a completely unjustifiable salary relative to any international standards, and many of whom were slow enough to contribute a pension levy equivalent, let alone the latest paycut.

Getting quite preachy now these judges, must help their sense of self importance that they no longer have to fight off the nouveau riche for the prime mansions around the country.




Peter Kelly is one of the few public figures to have emerged with any credit from this mess in recent months.


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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:06 am 
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Location: Over Macho Grande? I don't think I'll ever be over Macho Grande...
sorehead wrote:
Must be great to be lectured on "forms of thieving" by judges who're paid a completely unjustifiable salary relative to any international standards, and many of whom were slow enough to contribute a pension levy equivalent, let alone the latest paycut.

Getting quite preachy now these judges, must help their sense of self importance that they no longer have to fight off the nouveau riche for the prime mansions around the country.


They'll be the judge of that!

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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:30 am 
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Larry wrote:
Peter Kelly is one of the few public figures to have emerged with any credit from this mess in recent months.


Absolutely. He seems to me to try to do the right thing.

I'll have a special place in my heart for him ever since the Carroll examinership case. That was soap-opera on a grand scale, and there's a lot of us who thought Carroll would get away with it, even though it seemed open and shut.

Good man Kelly :)


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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:37 am 
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Judge Peter Kelly is worth every penny. If anything he deserves a raise!

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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:41 am 
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Larry wrote:
sorehead wrote:
Must be great to be lectured on "forms of thieving" by judges who're paid a completely unjustifiable salary relative to any international standards, and many of whom were slow enough to contribute a pension levy equivalent, let alone the latest paycut.

Getting quite preachy now these judges, must help their sense of self importance that they no longer have to fight off the nouveau riche for the prime mansions around the country.



Peter Kelly is one of the few public figures to have emerged with any credit from this mess in recent months.



100%. Kelly earns his salary - no doubt about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:41 am 
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Not saying that this is correct business management, but it goes on in every business.

Perhaps the judge could order the banks to release funds to business so that working capital requirements could be met in a "legal" method. Its a double edged sword, businesses need funds and will 9 times out of 10 delay payments no just to Revenue, but to suppliers, landlords, leasing companies to name a few, thereby pushing hardship on others, and on it goes.

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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:44 am 
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bob3367 wrote:
Not saying that this is correct business management, but it goes on in every business.

Perhaps the judge could order the banks to release funds to business so that working capital requirements could be met in a "legal" method. Its a double edged sword, businesses need funds and will 9 times out of 10 delay payments no just to Revenue, but to suppliers, landlords, leasing companies to name a few, thereby pushing hardship on others, and on it goes.


MMM, Once you start dipping into to funds earmarked for revenue ( VAT, PRSI, PAYE Taxes) you are on the slippery slope to doomsville. It cant be sustained and cant be recovered.


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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:02 pm 
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The Naked Chef wrote:
bob3367 wrote:
Not saying that this is correct business management, but it goes on in every business.

Perhaps the judge could order the banks to release funds to business so that working capital requirements could be met in a "legal" method. Its a double edged sword, businesses need funds and will 9 times out of 10 delay payments no just to Revenue, but to suppliers, landlords, leasing companies to name a few, thereby pushing hardship on others, and on it goes.


MMM, Once you start dipping into to funds earmarked for revenue ( VAT, PRSI, PAYE Taxes) you are on the slippery slope to doomsville. It cant be sustained and cant be recovered.


I agree 100%, but I have worked in various "successful" businesses as an accountant, and I was shocked to see the level of "dipping" that went on. I actually walked out of one job, when I discovered that CT wasn't (a) calculated correctly and (b) never paid. Didn't want my name associated and all that was also a reason for high tailing.

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 Post subject: Re: Top club operated under form of thieving
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:03 pm 
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Having known people who worked in Bang Cafe, I am shocked, shocked, that to find that gambling was going on in there!

P.


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