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 Post subject: Ominous Development for $ vs E
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:10 am 
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This move if it happens widely will have profound results globally

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.j ... udi119.xml

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"This is a very dangerous situation for the dollar," said Hans Redeker, currency chief at BNP Paribas.

"Saudi Arabia has $800bn (£400bn) in their future generation fund, and the entire region has $3,500bn under management. They face an inflationary threat and do not want to import an interest rate policy set for the recessionary conditions in the United States," he said.

The Saudi central bank said today that it would take "appropriate measures" to halt huge capital inflows into the country, but analysts say this policy is unsustainable and will inevitably lead to the collapse of the dollar peg.

As a close ally of the US, Riyadh has so far tried to stick to the peg, but the link is now destabilising its own economy.
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The Fed's dramatic half point cut to 4.75pc yesterday has already caused a plunge in the world dollar index to a fifteen year low, touching with weakest level ever against the mighty euro at just under $1.40.

There is now a growing danger that global investors will start to shun the US bond markets. The latest US government data on foreign holdings released this week show a collapse in purchases of US bonds from $97bn to just $19bn in July, with outright net sales of US Treasuries.

The danger is that this could now accelerate as the yield gap between the United States and the rest of the world narrows rapidly, leaving America starved of foreign capital flows needed to cover its current account deficit - expected to reach $850bn this year, or 6.5pc of GDP.

Mr Redeker said foreign investors have been gradually pulling out of the long-term US debt markets, leaving the dollar dependent on short-term funding. Foreigners have funded 25pc to 30pc of America's credit and short-term paper markets over the last two years.

"They were willing to provide the money when rates were paying nicely, but why bear the risk in these dramatically changed circumstances? We think that a fall in dollar to $1.50 against the euro is not out of the question at all by the first quarter of 2008," he said.


It could even be the start of a slippery slope which leads to OIL being priced in Euros not dollars. Basically the combination of the .com slump and the derivatives blow has led to these oil rich countries beginning to question what they can actually ' do ' with their $ and which will not lead to them losing money.

And if you can ' do ' nothing useful with it why bother with it !

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:34 am 
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I dont know that europeans want oil priced in euros. It would result in a very strong euro that would destroy german export industries.

There is the need for the creation of a global currency thats not in the control of any one country, that can be used for trading oil and other commodities.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:38 am 
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TruthSpeaker wrote:
I dont know that europeans want oil priced in euros. It would result in a very strong euro that would destroy german export industries.


Euro would be the numeraire only. That wouldn't increase net demand for the Euro. Think about the other end of the transaction on purchase.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:42 am 
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TruthSpeaker wrote:
There is the need for the creation of a global currency thats not in the control of any one country, that can be used for trading oil and other commodities.


One world currency means one world governance.

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Last edited by Open Window on Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:48 am 
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geckko wrote:
TruthSpeaker wrote:
I dont know that europeans want oil priced in euros. It would result in a very strong euro that would destroy german export industries.


Euro would be the numeraire only. That wouldn't increase net demand for the Euro. Think about the other end of the transaction on purchase.


Are you saying the euro wouldnt strengthen, if oil was priced in euros?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:00 pm 
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TruthSpeaker wrote:
geckko wrote:
TruthSpeaker wrote:
I dont know that europeans want oil priced in euros. It would result in a very strong euro that would destroy german export industries.


Euro would be the numeraire only. That wouldn't increase net demand for the Euro. Think about the other end of the transaction on purchase.


Are you saying the euro wouldnt strengthen, if oil was priced in euros?


It wouldn't materially change the equillibrium in FX markets. Short-term you would almost certainly see sentiment induced volatility (or volatility attributed to it), but it would not, in itself, change the supply/demand balance for USD which is governed by capital and trade flows themeselve, not the currencies in which they are priced.

Imagine you (in Ireland) are selling stuff on eBay and you knwo that for convience sake most of your potential buyers like to transact in USD. YOu quote in USD, take the USD from the buyer (who has them in her bank account). You then sell these, to deposite Euros into your account (or buys Euro bonds or whatever it is you like doing).

Now imagine that you get the hump and decide from now on you will only quote and transact in EUR. You buyers still want the stuff, but now need to take USD from their account and sell it (this is the bit most people are focusing on). But then what happens? You take the EUR from the buyer and put it into you bank account or buy Euro bonds as you like to do. That's it. You are no longer selling any USD as you were before.

So although the buyer now has to sell USD to transact in the new numeraire, you are no longer selling USD on the other end of the transaction.

Net effect - nil.

So the change in the currency under which prices are quoted or transacted doesn't have any real effect in itself. It is just a numeraire.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:08 pm 
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Changing the denomination of petrol to euros is likely still to weaken the dollar.

A further weakening dollar may tempt China to open the floodgates.

They are sitting on $700 billion of US dollars in their FX reserves, if they decide to change that denomination to euros... :shock:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:11 pm 
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Is it true to say that those holding shares/options in $$ (as with many american multinational employees in Ireland) are loosing out as the dollar falls if they ever want to cash in and convert to the home currency of euros? So, as well as watching the up's and down's of the share price we need to keep an eye on the conversion rate also?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:12 pm 
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The Unwelcome Guest wrote:
Changing the denomination of petrol to euros is likely still to weaken the dollar.

A further weakening dollar may tempt China to open the floodgates.

They are sitting on $700 billion of US dollars in their FX reserves, if they decide to change that denomination to euros... :shock:


A couple of things.

If the Chinese sell USD700 bn in US assets, they will lose bucket loads of money. SO that will obviously not happen even if they didn't want them anymore.

Secondly, Why would they? Are you saying that US Treasuries are overvalued?

AlLl I am saying is that this issue has the potential to destabilise markets, but not effect the long run expected returns the competing assets.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:21 pm 
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Location: Over Macho Grande? I don't think I'll ever be over Macho Grande...
It's not all about pure economics geckko...

It's a very powerful bargaining tool / weapon that the Chinese have acquired, largely, when most people weren't watching...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:28 pm 
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The Unwelcome Guest wrote:
It's not all about pure economics geckko...

It's a very powerful bargaining tool / weapon that the Chinese have acquired, largely, when most people weren't watching...


You can't buck the economics... :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:31 pm 
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Imagine if the Chinese and US got into a shooting war over Taiwan? It would cost both sides hundreds of billions, probably trillions (an aircraft carrier or two and China blasted back to the 50s). It would seem like a bargain for the Chinese to instead bankrupt (or even threaten to bankrupt) the US economically, even if it did cost them several hundred billion.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:40 pm 
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A Random Walk wrote:
Imagine if the Chinese and US got into a shooting war over Taiwan? It would cost both sides hundreds of billions, probably trillions (an aircraft carrier or two and China blasted back to the 50s). It would seem like a bargain for the Chinese to instead bankrupt (or even threaten to bankrupt) the US economically, even if it did cost them several hundred billion.


They couldn't bankrupt the US.

Think worst case. China sell all their Treasuries, say USD700bn. What would that do to Treasury yields?

There would be loads of potential buyers, probably dumping Euro govs. or even moving out of credit to take up the opportunity as yields increased more and more, eventually offsetting the sale and costing China bundles.

Large as this holding and other Government and CB holding around the world appear, they can't change the economic/financial merits of holding US securities.

It is a fixed cash flow drawn on the sovereign tax raising power of the largest economy in the world, with (arguably) the best monetary goverannce in the world (now the Bundesbank is defunct).


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:47 pm 
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I don't see this wall of potential purchasers lining up anywhere. Already you could argue that China & the petro-states are getting poor value for their Treasury purchases, but they are doing it (in China's case) to attempt to manipulate currency rates. If the Chinese dumped Treasuries, the yield should shoot through the roof to try and entice new buyers which is where I see the US economy being crippled.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:50 pm 
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A Random Walk wrote:
I don't see this wall of potential purchasers lining up anywhere. Already you could argue that China & the petro-states are getting poor value for their Treasury purchases, but they are doing it (in China's case) to attempt to manipulate currency rates. If the Chinese dumped Treasuries, the yield should shoot through the roof to try and entice new buyers which is where I see the US economy being crippled.


It might be my role as apparent elder stateman (or stupid old bugger) on this forum that I have seen these same arguments many thimes before.


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