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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:16 pm 
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GameBlame wrote:
It's intriguing to watch how the British operate when the usual 'divide and conquer' strategy is not on the menu. Fergus Finlay's article was perceptive. They fly their kites and try to bog you down in gibberish.


I saw today's BBC news at 6, this was the first time I saw many establishment type Britons openly say that Brexit talks are not working, that change is needed, and that change is on the British side as the EU are not budging. They then had various EU leaders say that they still don't know what the UK wants and that it was up to the UK to come up with solutions.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:23 pm 
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I don't think the timing of Blankfein's tweet was accidental either. It all just turns up the heat. It's like the Bilderberg group's representative on Earth saying: 'Fix this to our satisfaction so we can get back to making money or your economy will lose'. I wonder if the UK establishment will agree with his general point or retaliate.

The Brexiteer's supporters in the chattering classes persuaded themselves that because they had a trade deficit with the EU everything else would broadly work out. The penny is starting to drop that it's tough when you're facing a phalanx of EU politicians and bureaucratic apparatus as well as a 5th column at home.

I can't help but wonder though is it your typical EU meeting charade where they pretend to have a showdown for the cameras but it's all been agreed in advance


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:35 am 
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Magpie wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
It's intriguing to watch how the British operate when the usual 'divide and conquer' strategy is not on the menu. Fergus Finlay's article was perceptive. They fly their kites and try to bog you down in gibberish.


I saw today's BBC news at 6, this was the first time I saw many establishment type Britons openly say that Brexit talks are not working, that change is needed, and that change is on the British side as the EU are not budging. They then had various EU leaders say that they still don't know what the UK wants and that it was up to the UK to come up with solutions.

Kites maybe but more likely deep internal rifts
Corbyn is about the only sensible voice, i cant believe it either
Ultimately the The bigger block gets to push around the junior partner.
We are used to this, Britain isnt. They have acted like a petulant teenager but they have no where to run away to
Time for them to grow up

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:59 am 
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werpen wrote:
Magpie wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
It's intriguing to watch how the British operate when the usual 'divide and conquer' strategy is not on the menu. Fergus Finlay's article was perceptive. They fly their kites and try to bog you down in gibberish.


I saw today's BBC news at 6, this was the first time I saw many establishment type Britons openly say that Brexit talks are not working, that change is needed, and that change is on the British side as the EU are not budging. They then had various EU leaders say that they still don't know what the UK wants and that it was up to the UK to come up with solutions.

Kites maybe but more likely deep internal rifts
Corbyn is about the only sensible voice, i cant believe it either
Ultimately the The bigger block gets to push around the junior partner.
We are used to this, Britain isnt. They have acted like a petulant teenager but they have no where to run away to
Time for them to grow up

I've been trying to come up with analogy to the current state of the negotiations, and the best I can come up with is a man asking his wife for a divorce.

But before he'll agree - or even talk - about the separation, split of assets, alimony, child support - he instead wants to first talk about a "friend with benefits" relationship with his future ex-wife.

And then complains to all his friends that she's the problem and won't meet him halfway.

Only a very special type of asshole would behave like this.


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:08 am 
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london_irish wrote:
I've been trying to come up with analogy to the current state of the negotiations, and the best I can come up with is a man asking his wife for a divorce.

But before he'll agree - or even talk - about the separation, split of assets, alimony, child support - he instead wants to first talk about a "friend with benefits" relationship with his future ex-wife.

And then complains to all his friends that she's the problem and won't meet him halfway.

Only a very special type of asshole would behave like this.

That's a pretty good analogy.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:13 am 
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I think the analogy is missing that the man also has several mistresses all making their own demands about the divorce settlement and the shape of the post-nuptial arrangements. He's too weak (or too spineless) to tell them that various of the demands are mutually incompatible.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:17 am 
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london_irish wrote:
werpen wrote:
Magpie wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
It's intriguing to watch how the British operate when the usual 'divide and conquer' strategy is not on the menu. Fergus Finlay's article was perceptive. They fly their kites and try to bog you down in gibberish.


I saw today's BBC news at 6, this was the first time I saw many establishment type Britons openly say that Brexit talks are not working, that change is needed, and that change is on the British side as the EU are not budging. They then had various EU leaders say that they still don't know what the UK wants and that it was up to the UK to come up with solutions.

Kites maybe but more likely deep internal rifts
Corbyn is about the only sensible voice, i cant believe it either
Ultimately the The bigger block gets to push around the junior partner.
We are used to this, Britain isnt. They have acted like a petulant teenager but they have no where to run away to
Time for them to grow up

I've been trying to come up with analogy to the current state of the negotiations, and the best I can come up with is a man asking his wife for a divorce.

But before he'll agree - or even talk - about the separation, split of assets, alimony, child support - he instead wants to first talk about a "friend with benefits" relationship with his future ex-wife.

And then complains to all his friends that she's the problem and won't meet him halfway.

Only a very special type of asshole would behave like this.

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:27 pm 
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Good analogy. Swiss Toni is looking for Friends with Benefits with his haughty French ex-wife. Tough negotiation !
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09 ... ni-brexit/


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:17 pm 
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This is all about punishment and not trade or economics. It looks like the EU is trying to make an example out of Britain for daring to go it alone, to scare off other member states that may be thinking of doing so.

If the EU is full sure that Britain will not succeed when it leaves, why not speed negotiations up, give them a deal and then watch the Brits crash and burn?

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:25 pm 
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Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
This is all about punishment and not trade or economics. It looks like the EU is trying to make an example out of Britain for daring to go it alone, to scare off other member states that may be thinking of doing so.

If the EU is full sure that Britain will not succeed when it leaves, why not speed negotiations up, give them a deal and then watch the Brits crash and burn?

But Mossy, don't you know, there a better world out there for global britain, unrestrained by redtape EU etc....

Any true believer knows that Britain's success doesn't rely on smelly continental types with their silly languages, stinky cheeses and sweaty sausages.

No chin up, think of Vera Lynn and give thanks the world has Britain to lead it.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:07 pm 
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Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
This is all about punishment and not trade or economics. It looks like the EU is trying to make an example out of Britain for daring to go it alone, to scare off other member states that may be thinking of doing so.

If the EU is full sure that Britain will not succeed when it leaves, why not speed negotiations up, give them a deal and then watch the Brits crash and burn?


Well that's certainly a major factor. The end result has to look a bad enough, that no-one else is tempted to take the same idiotic option.

The other, more pragmatic side; is that the EU is simply trying to make it clear to the UK Gov, that the amount the agree to pay in the divorce payment, is directly related to the end trade deal they get !

The EU might agree to discuss trade; just to shut them up for awhile; but absolutely nothing substantial will be agreed until the UK come up with a number they'll pay to settle their account.

If the EU thinks they aren't paying enough, they'll just tack it onto the UKs further trading deal .. maybe the EU can get a Finance person from VW Bank to explain the financing thing to them, & why the really ought to pay as much of a deposit as they can on their brand new Car ?

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
This is all about punishment and not trade or economics. It looks like the EU is trying to make an example out of Britain for daring to go it alone, to scare off other member states that may be thinking of doing so.

If the EU is full sure that Britain will not succeed when it leaves, why not speed negotiations up, give them a deal and then watch the Brits crash and burn?


From an emotional point of view, which can't be discounted of course, I can see that.

But from a transactional perspective, it falls down. The EU are saying, the UK made commitments. The EU thinks its X (60bn or so), but they have invited the UK to set out their stall. But the Tories are so divided that even talking about this is poison.

But I can't see how the EU can be faulted here. And remember, it isn't "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" here - its the other 27. The EU is an apparatus to execute the collective will of the EU nations. For May to try to go over Barniers head exposes her (and the Brexiteers) conceit that the EU, and the nations in the EU, are separate. Its such a massive mistake and misreading of the situation that, yes, the UK should not and never should have been part of the EU.

The other issues of EU citizens rights, and the NI border, are obvious problems that just must be solved. To paraphrase, its not going to go away, you know.

The other analogy to use here is companies entering into a set of contractual arrangements to execute some kind of project (or megaproject). Years later, one wants to get out of their contractual commitments. Well, that's going to cost and it should. Otherwise it would be mayhem.

The beauty of the EU demands are that they are basic and what you would expect to be asked and demanded. Its astounding the UK is so ill prepared to address them.

Or the UK knows it can't address them because of domestic politics. And all the events so far is staging and optics leading to a no-deal


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:17 am 
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This free trade thing is a total red herring also.

They currently have free trade.

Are they going to admit unlimited quantities of argentinian beef? Cars made in china india? Steel?

The domestic industry cant compete on a free trade basis.

They want free trade to continue. Ya right. It will be highly selective free trade id say.


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:39 pm 
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What I fail to understand is how anyone saying that the EU respecting the UKs decision to become just another non-EU country is punishment.

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Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it. Those who do study history are doomed to watch everyone else repeating it.


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:04 pm 
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catbear wrote:
What I fail to understand is how anyone saying that the EU respecting the UKs decision to become just another non-EU country is punishment.


They want to be treated as a bigger version of Switzerland but with added rights given their size and level of self regard. Is that so impossible for the EU to allow come about ? If so Why ?

Seeing France and Germany tiptoe round Putin while crucifying Greece and dismissing the UK makes me not proud to be a 'fellow European' of theirs

Yogan quoted someone saying things go from "impossible" to "inevitable" suddenly in these pan national crises. I'm wondering what cards the UK has left to play ? I think running down their military capability over the last decade was a mistake. A good big crisis and people might start being less dismissive of their carry on


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