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 Post subject: Re: #ParadisePapers
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:37 pm 
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is that the infamous Bronfman family?

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 Post subject: Re: #ParadisePapers
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:11 pm 
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Joined: Oct 7, 2014
Posts: 995
I don't think there's any contradiction in saying that there's nothing wrong with taking advantage of loopholes that exist but also believing we should close them.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if many of those taking advantage of these loopholes don't think they should exist either. In the abstract many of them likely agree with the principle, but when asked by their accountant if they'd like to pay €1 million or €10 million in tax..?

I definitely think these loopholes should be closed, but given the opportunity to legally avoid paying tax I absolutely do that (pension, company car, etc).

(On the other hand, evaders who knowingly withhold tax illegally should have the book thrown at them).


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 Post subject: Re: #ParadisePapers
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:52 pm 
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Location: The Second Æther! Hull Breach Imminent, Eschaton Immanent...
Ardillaun wrote:
In Ireland, I'm often on a country road with an 80 k limit that should be 40 k but I may still do 80 k as I am legally entitled to do. Doesn't change my opinion about the limit.

To be clear, speed limits do not grant an entitlement to drive at a particular speed.
If you believe the safe speed is 40 km/h and you drive at 80 km/h, you're almost certainly committing an offence (would want to be careful in talking to Gardai etc., if an incident occurred).

muirgheasa wrote:
I don't think there's any contradiction in saying that there's nothing wrong with taking advantage of loopholes that exist but also believing we should close them.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if many of those taking advantage of these loopholes don't think they should exist either. In the abstract many of them likely agree with the principle, but when asked by their accountant if they'd like to pay €1 million or €10 million in tax..?

I definitely think these loopholes should be closed, but given the opportunity to legally avoid paying tax I absolutely do that (pension, company car, etc).

(On the other hand, evaders who knowingly withhold tax illegally should have the book thrown at them).

A loophole is generally a sort of unforeseen quirk of the system. Many of these tax avoidance schemes are designed.

What makes you think that someone who is saving 1m in tax would want the "loophole"/exemption closed? It seems unlikely given you concede that self-interest wins out "when asked by their accountant if they'd like to pay €1 million or €10 million in tax..?"

As the old quote goes, tax is for little people.
and why is that?
because richer people engineer the system in that way


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 Post subject: Re: #ParadisePapers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:45 am 
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Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 1882
Years ago I worked for a mom'n'pop firm with about ten employees. They did quite a lot to illegally avoid tax.

They had a staff member living in one of the warehouses who paid the MD in cash.

The father in law filled up his car from the tank at the office.

They put all sorts of family expenses on the company credit card.

They were not 'big' people. The lesson is that people at all levels of income do their most to avoid tax. It is not an affliction of the rich. It's just much easier when you have investment/proprietary income compared to regular PAYE workers.


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 Post subject: Re: #ParadisePapers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Joined: Jan 4, 2010
Posts: 757
Location: Talamh an Éisc
Col. Max Pyatnitski wrote:
Ardillaun wrote:
In Ireland, I'm often on a country road with an 80 k limit that should be 40 k but I may still do 80 k as I am legally entitled to do. Doesn't change my opinion about the limit.

To be clear, speed limits do not grant an entitlement to drive at a particular speed.
If you believe the safe speed is 40 km/h and you drive at 80 km/h, you're almost certainly committing an offence (would want to be careful in talking to Gardai etc., if an incident occurred).


And the ten people behind me trying to get by wouldn’t? I cause enough traffic congestion as it is. I’ve never had an accident there but I would certainly keep my opinions to myself about the speed limits if I did. In my part of Canada I am used to at least twenty feet of clear ground on either side of the road.

Let me take another example:

1. As a Canadian I consider people like me overpaid and my pension plan way too generous.

2. I'm still keeping my loot,.

I don't regard these statements as inconsistent.


Last edited by Ardillaun on Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:08 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: #ParadisePapers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Jan 4, 2010
Posts: 757
Location: Talamh an Éisc
Thing Fish wrote:
is that the infamous Bronfman family?


Yes, the very same. They made big money in the doubtless legal business of supplying alcohol to the US during Prohibition.

The cornered culprits and careful news outlets tend to fall back on the same intensifiers to describe the legality of such actions which says quite a bit in itself, e.g. completely, utterly, entirely. It would be refreshing if we saw at least a sea change in that jaded practice from the reporters and they called these Mauritian loan schemes and the like as most of us see them: surprisingly legal or in-the-name-of-God-how-is-that legal. Aggressive offshore tax avoidance is pseudoevasion. It isn’t the real thing but it does bear an uncanny resemblance.


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 Post subject: Re: #ParadisePapers
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:44 pm 
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Joined: Sep 30, 2008
Posts: 506
Location: The West Indies
ps200306 wrote:
Inis Man wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
Watched tonight's Panorama about the Paradise papers. Basic summary: "rich people avoid as much tax as legally possible". My reaction: "Yawn! Find me any person who pays more tax than they have to. Change the rules if you don't like them, but for god sake quit bitching about the legal stuff".

No. Changing rules is not the solution. Much better for RTE to shame Denis O'Brien and others to admit they are Irish after all not Maltese, never mind what the law allows them get away with. BTW, as Irish taxpayers, how do we find out how many days a year O'Brien spends in Malta?

Do you or anyone you know pay into a pension? Should you be reminded that you are Irish and that you could be paying tax on that income instead of funneling it into a tax avoidance vehicle?


Why not go the whole hog and waive your right to all tax credits, and the 20% tax band and just pay the tax at the highest rate on all income?


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 Post subject: Re: #ParadisePapers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:30 am 
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Joined: Jun 17, 2008
Posts: 1719
ps200306 wrote:
Watched tonight's Panorama about the Paradise papers. Basic summary: "rich people avoid as much tax as legally possible". My reaction: "Yawn! Find me any person who pays more tax than they have to. Change the rules if you don't like them, but for god sake quit bitching about the legal stuff".


Amazing to find on my return to TPP, theres still some people on here who defend the 40Billion Bank Bailout
after all that was "as legally possible" too

The lady doth protest too much , Celtic Tiger 2.0 most definitely is upon us.

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it had to teach and not when I came to die to discover that I had never lived..Henry David Thoreau


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