Follow, retweet @dailypinster




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 182 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:41 pm 
Offline
Nationalised
User avatar

Joined: Jan 4, 2013
Posts: 16964
Location: To the right of the decimal place
People are getting annoyed at the wrong thing; by the time the building was sold and the opco wound down, it's far too late to protest. Nothing done at that point was questionable as far as I can see.

The fundamental "problem" was splitting the (valuable) asset from the (loss making) opco in the first place. This is the point at which unions and concession holders should have been making noise and asking questions. For example, was this in the best interests of the shareholders at the time? It doesn't take a genius to see that the store would eventually have to close, or be massively restructured. Of course, no-one gave a crap until far, far too late.

_________________
“If you're afraid - don't do it. If you're doing it - don't be afraid!” ― Genghis Khan

"Do, or do not; there is no try" -- Yoda


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:01 pm 
Offline
Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Dec 28, 2006
Posts: 5578
Our workers council was very worked up about our company changing from being a national company to a european company and was a huge obstacle to that change for quite a long time until they got plenty of assurances. Maybe the Union movement is not up to the cut and thrust of big business which is a good reason why the likes of Begg shouldn't be let anywhere near the Pension board.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:02 pm 
Offline
Nationalised
User avatar

Joined: Jan 4, 2013
Posts: 16964
Location: To the right of the decimal place
dipole wrote:
Our workers council was very worked up about our company changing from being a national company to a european company and was a huge obstacle to that change for quite a long time until they got plenty of assurances. Maybe the Union movement is not up to the cut and thrust of big business which is a good reason why the likes of Begg shouldn't be let anywhere near the Pension board.


The union movement here is, by and large, a bunch of self-serving guys who have long lost sight of the actual objectives of the original labour union movement.

_________________
“If you're afraid - don't do it. If you're doing it - don't be afraid!” ― Genghis Khan

"Do, or do not; there is no try" -- Yoda


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:21 pm 
Offline
IMF'd

Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 31312
Location: Tullamore
Mantissa wrote:
People are getting annoyed at the wrong thing; by the time the building was sold and the opco wound down, it's far too late to protest. Nothing done at that point was questionable as far as I can see.

The fundamental "problem" was splitting the (valuable) asset from the (loss making) opco in the first place. This is the point at which unions and concession holders should have been making noise and asking questions. For example, was this in the best interests of the shareholders at the time? It doesn't take a genius to see that the store would eventually have to close, or be massively restructured. Of course, no-one gave a crap until far, far too late.

Right, that was the point I was trying to make (badly).

_________________
"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:41 pm 
Offline
Holiday Home Owner

Joined: May 12, 2010
Posts: 343
Mantissa wrote:
The union movement here is, by and large, a bunch of self-serving guys who have long lost sight of the actual objectives of the original labour union movement.


I won't disagree with your statement or sentiment because you said "by and large".
I was an active Union member.
I can state: the issues raised are difficult and to address them needs foresight and a movement / collective effort which requires a view of future risks.
But don't make the mistake: the Union movement is not just the paid Union officials -
it's them plus the voluntary reps plus the represented membership (and all have a responsibility).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:17 pm 
Offline
Property Magnate

Joined: Jan 7, 2008
Posts: 565
Mantissa wrote:
People are getting annoyed at the wrong thing; by the time the building was sold and the opco wound down, it's far too late to protest. Nothing done at that point was questionable as far as I can see.

The fundamental "problem" was splitting the (valuable) asset from the (loss making) opco in the first place. This is the point at which unions and concession holders should have been making noise and asking questions. For example, was this in the best interests of the shareholders at the time? It doesn't take a genius to see that the store would eventually have to close, or be massively restructured. Of course, no-one gave a crap until far, far too late.


Property and operating company owned by a group is a very common structure. Opco mightn't even have been loss-making when it was done.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2016 12:02 am 
Offline
Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Jun 16, 2007
Posts: 2590
Location: Oighearland
tinneym wrote:
Mantissa wrote:
People are getting annoyed at the wrong thing; by the time the building was sold and the opco wound down, it's far too late to protest. Nothing done at that point was questionable as far as I can see.

The fundamental "problem" was splitting the (valuable) asset from the (loss making) opco in the first place. This is the point at which unions and concession holders should have been making noise and asking questions. For example, was this in the best interests of the shareholders at the time? It doesn't take a genius to see that the store would eventually have to close, or be massively restructured. Of course, no-one gave a crap until far, far too late.


Property and operating company owned by a group is a very common structure. Opco mightn't even have been loss-making when it was done.

while the opco itself probably made money (or certainly could if didnt have to pay rent, ala bewleys fiasco from 2005), the internal rent shenanigans whereby the opco had to lease the building from the propco could be deliberately engineered to trigger a debt default on the part of the opco

_________________
advice to future unemployed TDs at the next general election: dont look at it as a failure, see it as an opportunity to 'upskill'.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:25 am 
Offline
Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Dec 2, 2013
Posts: 2213
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/comm ... -1.2719534


The Workplace Relations Commission may well be exceeding their powers but the run up to this shenanigans is starting to look really really bad for all involved in it. They didn't even bother with the pretense of a Chinese Wall. Amazing. And they documented things.

The more she shouts "there was nothing improper" the more you read IMPROPER

Call me dumb but I just assumed that they'd have the sense to engage another big firm to advise on the run up.

What trips up the story is who exactly was the KPMG client and when. At various times it seems to have been Natrium, Opco (old directors), Propco, Natrium again, Opco (new directors) All moreyah not acting in consort


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:21 am 
Offline
Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Dec 2, 2013
Posts: 2213
Update on this. there was a really soft focus interview in the SBP with Foley.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/reta ... -1.2843135

Foley just lost her challenge. The Judge managed to use the word CRIMINAL regularly. Which eh, is never good.

If I was her I'd fire my lawyers. Not for the sabre rattling challenge but for under protecting and under advising her in the run up to the transaction.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:30 am 
Offline
Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Jun 5, 2008
Posts: 1997
Location: I like Dalkey
There was a lot of "Move along, nothing to see" when in fact there is plenty to see.

_________________
.
Housing should be affordable and plentiful.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:48 pm 
Offline
Nationalised
User avatar

Joined: Jan 4, 2013
Posts: 16964
Location: To the right of the decimal place
SIPTU allegedly used the planning process to extort the new owners: https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2017/0320/861170-clerys/

_________________
“If you're afraid - don't do it. If you're doing it - don't be afraid!” ― Genghis Khan

"Do, or do not; there is no try" -- Yoda


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:11 pm 
Offline
Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Dec 2, 2013
Posts: 2213
You don't seem to understand the word extort.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:27 am 
Offline
Nationalised
User avatar

Joined: Jan 4, 2013
Posts: 16964
Location: To the right of the decimal place
GameBlame wrote:
You don't seem to understand the word extort.


If I say "I'm going to object to your planning application unless you pay me €1000" that's clearly extortion (although presumably legal).

In this case SIPTU agreed to withdraw a planning complaint in exchange for unrelated benefits (possibly money but it's not known) for certain people. Seems to meet the definition to me. Why don't you think it's extortion?

_________________
“If you're afraid - don't do it. If you're doing it - don't be afraid!” ― Genghis Khan

"Do, or do not; there is no try" -- Yoda


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:24 am 
Offline
Under CAB Investigation
User avatar

Joined: Oct 20, 2010
Posts: 2134
Mantissa wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
You don't seem to understand the word extort.


If I say "I'm going to object to your planning application unless you pay me €1000" that's clearly extortion (although presumably legal).

In this case SIPTU agreed to withdraw a planning complaint in exchange for unrelated benefits (possibly money but it's not known) for certain people. Seems to meet the definition to me. Why don't you think it's extortion?

It is extortion and a case can be illegal even in this type of situation. It's quite a while since I did my law modules but I seem to remember that even solicitor's letters had to be worded carefully to avoid exposing the sender to a charge of extortion. A straight up "Pay me X or I will sue" could be classed as extortion so there were more subtly worded alternatives that were accepted as delivering the same message legally without straying into extortion.

_________________
banana republic, septic isle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clerys finished
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:24 am 
Offline
Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Jun 26, 2012
Posts: 2966
Location: The Second Æther! Hull Breach Imminent, Eschaton Immanent...
Mantissa wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
You don't seem to understand the word extort.


If I say "I'm going to object to your planning application unless you pay me €1000" that's clearly extortion (although presumably legal).

In this case SIPTU agreed to withdraw a planning complaint in exchange for unrelated benefits (possibly money but it's not known) for certain people. Seems to meet the definition to me. Why don't you think it's extortion?

Is it not just negotiation?
If SIPTU went to a party and said "we'll do X unless you give us Y", where X is an action damaging to the party's then that's probably extortion. But if SIPTU go ahead and start doing X (perhaps out of spite, perhaps out of genuine cause), and the affected party comes to SIPTU and proposes a work-around or compensation to "make the problem go away", I don't think that would be extortion.
(IANAL)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 182 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  

Follow, Retweet @dailypinster



Pyramid Built, Is Better Built! - Latest Property Discussions www.thepropertypin.com