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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:17 pm 
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Daniel Plainview wrote:
Still, tourism is going to drop now after the Summer ... and that will reduce imports which is a good thing....

Remember that's what you told us all earlier in this thread: Tourism is an import.
.

Every time your favourite Greek Demogogue Gods in Greece are challenged you come up with that one Daniel don't you. I did not say "tourism" is an import but you latched on hysterically bless you. Any tenous toehold on near field reality will do will it????

Tsipras is nothing but a populist fraud
Varoufakis is a populist fraud.
So are Lafazanis and that demented speaker of the last parliament.

€100bn of a new hole dug in 6 months flat.

Demagogues, charlatans and frauds the whole lot of them. Not Gods Daniel, never that! :D :D :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:05 pm 
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2Pack wrote:
Daniel Plainview wrote:
Still, tourism is going to drop now after the Summer ... and that will reduce imports which is a good thing....

Remember that's what you told us all earlier in this thread: Tourism is an import.
.

Every time your favourite Greek Demogogue Gods in Greece are challenged you come up with that one Daniel don't you. I did not say "tourism" is an import but you latched on hysterically bless you.


You're right. What you actually said made even less sense and is even more hilarious. Bless.

2Pack wrote:
Daniel Plainview wrote:
2Pack wrote:
Greece will export shag all, same as now, irrespective of what currency they have in a years time.


Well tourism is an export, brains.
Tourism, as a share of exports, is down about 1/3 since Greece entered the deutschmark so leaving would likely see a very significant boost in tourism.


Greece is a net IMPORTER of Tourists Daniel. Drachmas may increase their imports.


Reasonable summary of the economic intellect of the anti-Yanis mugs.

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:38 pm 
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Daniel Plainview wrote:
You're right. What you actually said made even less sense and is even more hilarious. Bless.


What is hilarious is the amount of times you referred to something I didn't say Daniel.

Enough of the nonsense, its been going on all summer. :)

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:09 pm 
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boomshackala wrote:
Daniel Plainview wrote:
Ultimately, as Germany are slowly (very slowly) realising ...... if you run a (massive) trade surplus with a pegged currency you're just providing vendor finance to importers and you are guaranteed to be defaulted on because you're sucking money constantly and not feeding it back. Ze Germans aren't the sharpest tools unfortunately.

This is the fatal flaw of capitalism which Marx had identified.

People really go to any lengths to fit Marx's waffle to any problem. He had sfa to say about trade balances.

His 'flaws' of capitalism are more accurately characterised as flaws in his understanding of capitalism and more importantly the effect of advancing technology on the balance between value produced by labour and the value produced by capital (which he stupidly rejected by decree, setting its value to zero). Only if technological progress stopped entirely worldwide would he have had any chance to be correct. In a technologically advancing world the value of new capital not only exceeds the value of new labour but decreases the value of all labour. And those countries which fail to sufficiently reward capital end up gaining less productivity and being out competed by those who got the balance more correct.

And that is not saying either contemporary or current capitalism is without flaws, merely Marx was nowhere near the level needed to identify them.


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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:11 pm 
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Daniel Plainview wrote:
you people are so weird; Yanis' intellect really pissed so many people off.... maybe shows why so many of today's politicians are utterly thick....


Of all the things that made me laugh at Yanis, I can assure you that his intellect was not one of them.

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:14 pm 
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ragingbear wrote:

And that is not saying either contemporary or current capitalism is without flaws, merely Marx was nowhere near the level needed to identify them.

Bear in mind he wrote at a time when these problems largely hadn't existed yet. In that context he was remarkably prophetic, although I agree his views were not as refined as they might have been, never mind his proposed remedies.
I believe there will be a turning point on the productivity of capital as fossil fuels become more expensive to produce (oil is increasing in cost at 10% a year). EF Schumacher argued for this on an economic basis, having experienced the Ghandi model while batting for the Brits. There is logic to be applied on capital versus appropriate human scale, and the more expensive machines become the closer that day will be. There are various trends conspiring to move us in this direction. Take food for instance. People are now looking for hand made versus factory made. Technology is not necessarily the panacea we've been led to expect, thankfully.

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:39 pm 
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boomshackala wrote:
ragingbear wrote:
And that is not saying either contemporary or current capitalism is without flaws, merely Marx was nowhere near the level needed to identify them.

Bear in mind he wrote at a time when these problems largely hadn't existed yet. In that context he was remarkably prophetic, although I agree his views were not as refined as they might have been, never mind his proposed remedies.
He certainly had an imagination but produced little but wishful thinking in a pseudo-scientific wrapper. Prophetic in my mind implies an accuracy that he has miserably failed to deliver.
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I believe there will be a turning point on the productivity of capital as fossil fuels become more expensive to produce (oil is increasing in cost at 10% a year).
This is misunderstanding the effect of capital in the modern economy. While capital application correlates to energy demand during early industrialisation, it actually goes the opposite way at modern technology levels due to increased efficencies of using raw materials and energy. And this trend if anything looks like increasing as time goes on. All things being equal a high tech (which equals highly capitalised) economy can more easily tolerate resource constraints and since they need less inputs per unit output can always outbid more wasteful competition. Obviously there is a transfer to commodity exporters which are sometimes the same low efficiency countries which masks the effect to some extent. But the high tech commodity exporters are massively outperforming the low tech commodity exporters and high tech commodity importers are doing decently.
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There is logic to be applied on capital versus appropriate human scale, and the more expensive machines become the closer that day will be.
But the machines keep getting cheaper and better.
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Take food for instance. People are now looking for hand made versus factory made.
True but this is a reflection of discretionary disposable income which will always exist primarily at the high end of markets. And ironically the result most basic needs being met so cheaply using mass produced products allowing a luxury choice here and there. Only the really high earner can go handmade across the board.


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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:10 pm 
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He certainly had an imagination but produced little but wishful thinking in a pseudo-scientific wrapper. Prophetic in my mind implies an accuracy that he has miserably failed to deliver.

He was the only one to my knowledge who modelled the effects of concentration of capital, necessarily leading to economic depressions. Separately was he right about the inevitable rise of monopolies? Lets first agree he was big time wrong on many things, but lets not be binary about him either.
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, it actually goes the opposite way at modern technology levels due to increased efficiencies of using raw materials and energy. And this trend if anything looks like increasing as time goes on.

Agreed. However there comes a point of diminishing returns. So capital allows the use of machines which increases productivity and reduces unit energy costs. That part is easy, and universally accepted. At this point you have people who say, 'well humans are more adaptable, and what they lose in efficiency, they gain in resilience' (efficiency is always inversely correlated with resilience) - so you have that trade off to contend with. EF Schumacher held that appropriate human scale allowed for more diversification, more resilient communities, more local ownership, more local business, more suiting of products to local needs. But centralization was an unstoppable force and was always going to dominate. However there comes a point where increasing complexity reaches diminishing returns, allowing simpler systems to compete once again. We're all dependent on the internet now. The per capita energy foot print is huge for data transfer - similar to what you use to heat your home. Twenty years ago we got on fine without it. Many of these costs are not realized as they are externalized but they will come to bite us in the end.
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But the machines keep getting cheaper and better.

Do they? I hear stories about people not wanting to buy diesel cars made in the last few years because they are too complicated, some going back to petrol for instance.
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And ironically the result most basic needs being met so cheaply using mass produced products allowing a luxury choice here and there. Only the really high earner can go handmade across the board.

This is a misnomer. People with more money buy more handmade food, not because they have more money - they have more education - and that is a big factor. People who eat simple natural food spend less on their food. Contrast that with the other end of the social spectrum who regularly order home delivered takeouts (ask anyone in the restaurant home delivery business = from which demographic the bulk of their week day income comes from). I would say the irony is that people who go for the 'cheap' food end up spending a lot more.

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:38 am 
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boomshackala wrote:
Quote:
He certainly had an imagination but produced little but wishful thinking in a pseudo-scientific wrapper. Prophetic in my mind implies an accuracy that he has miserably failed to deliver.

He was the only one to my knowledge who modelled the effects of concentration of capital, necessarily leading to economic depressions.

Modelled is a kind word for Marx's pontifications. The downsides of aristocratic society, monopolies and cartels were already well understood by e.g. smith and the US founding fathers. Marx's 'falling rate of profit' drivel was plain wrong. It is obvious he wrote to reach a preconceived conclusion. He may have has original ideas and accurate ideas but his accurate ideas were unoriginal and his original ideas inaccurate.

Quote:
At this point you have people who say, 'well humans are more adaptable, and what they lose in efficiency, they gain in resilience' (efficiency is always inversely correlated with resilience)

No sure what resiliance means in this context. Assuming you mean flexibility, robots are gaining there rapidly.

Quote:
We're all dependent on the internet now. The per capita energy foot print is huge for data transfer - similar to what you use to heat your home.Twenty years ago we got on fine without it. Many of these costs are not realized as they are externalized but they will come to bite us in the end.

Way OT now. While the total consumption is considerable it is nowhere near this level. End user devices make up most of it. Why you think there are huge external costs I don't understand


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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:41 pm 
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Election on 20th, it's not clear who will form the next government.
Migrant crisis has completely overshadowed the Eurozone/Greek crisis


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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:12 pm 
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Exit polls suggest a Syriza-led coalition are returned again and appear to have lost only a few seats.
Quote:
Alexis Tsipras really is a political phenomenon. After seven months of turmoil, broken promises, a referendum, a capitulation in Brussels, and a split that saw one-third of his MPs quit, he’s heading back to the prime minister’s mansion with a similar mandate as in January 2015.


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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:28 pm 
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I saw a Greek person on the BBC observing that, as the far-left of Syriza broke away, more centrist Greeks voted for them. Makes sense.


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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:46 pm 
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Syriza back in. Euro lurches lower.

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:40 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Syriza back in. Euro lurches lower.

Two interesting things -
Syriza (shorn of the 'hard' left) back in, trouncing everyone else.
The 'hard' left splitters didn't make the 3% threshold.

To me it speaks volumes about a desire for fairness - nothing particularly radical, just that the tax system is trustable, that there's a floor of provision below which people don't want to go, that special interest groups don't get special deals.

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:24 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Syriza back in. Euro lurches lower.

Two interesting things -
Syriza (shorn of the 'hard' left) back in, trouncing everyone else.
The 'hard' left splitters didn't make the 3% threshold.

To me it speaks volumes about a desire for fairness - nothing particularly radical, just that the tax system is trustable, that there's a floor of provision below which people don't want to go, that special interest groups don't get special deals.
Indeed. Same as before the election.


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