Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 89 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

How wil you Vote on the upcomign Children Referendum
Yes 32%  32%  [ 31 ]
No 38%  38%  [ 37 ]
Spoil 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
Can not attend 18%  18%  [ 17 ]
Refuse to validate/recognise the State. 10%  10%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 97
Author Message
 Post subject: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:13 pm 
Offline
Nationalised
User avatar

Joined: Jan 1, 1970
Posts: 18126
(Continued form original thread here viewtopic.php?f=15&t=47309 )

I haven't followed this debate via the MSM and I would naturally be opposed to further State intervention in anything at this stage since it has run amok.

This is an angle one of many that i hadn't thought about but is alarming.

Quote:
Alert: Vote NO on Saturday to Children's Referendum
State will be able to vaccinate your children WITHOUT YOUR consent


In the past few days it has been realized that by voting Yes in the Children's Referendum that a result of the legal changes will be that you will be giving the power to the State to be able to vaccinate your children without your consent.

Given the sloppy practices and permanent serious illness that arose out of the Cervical cancer vaccine Gardasil for young girls, this is going a step to far. Parents should retain the right to decide on these matters. NOT THE STATE. Already Joan Burton has already hinted that Child Benefit will be tied into vaccination records, this could be extended to school admission.

There are numerous other good reasons to Vote NO such as that: Your child can be placed for adoption against your will.

Please see Ten Reasons to Vote No from the Alliance of Parents against the State at http://www.aps.ie

The issue here is: How can a State that will brutally cut benefits to children and families next month be having a Referendum that is pro-children? We also need to know what influence and lobbying has taken place by the pharmaceuitcal companies.


http://www.aps.ie/

_________________
Guerrilla Kaizen
Buckminster Fuller, "Politicians are always realistically maneuvering for the next election. They are obsolete as fundamental problem-solvers."
Image
https://twitter.com/nomoneyupfront
Open Window designs concept house for a pin user w/small footprint - > see sketches & pictures here <
Catbear - "I was comfortable with a couple of banks being married today, instead i wake up and find I'm married to the banks.""The wRight Poster"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:30 pm 
Offline
Property Magnate

Joined: Jun 26, 2012
Posts: 645
Location: The Second Æther
Open Window wrote:
I haven't followed this debate via the MSM and I would naturally be opposed to further State intervention in anything at this stage since it has run amok.

This is an angle one of many that i hadn't thought about but is alarming.

Quote:
Alert: Vote NO on Saturday to Children's Referendum
State will be able to vaccinate your children WITHOUT YOUR consent


In the past few days it has been realized that by voting Yes in the Children's Referendum that a result of the legal changes will be that you will be giving the power to the State to be able to vaccinate your children without your consent.

Given the sloppy practices and permanent serious illness that arose out of the Cervical cancer vaccine Gardasil for young girls, this is going a step to far. Parents should retain the right to decide on these matters. NOT THE STATE. Already Joan Burton has already hinted that Child Benefit will be tied into vaccination records, this could be extended to school admission.



http://www.aps.ie/


Most parents are not qualified to make decisions about matters like vaccination in any case, so I don't see the problem. Just because a particular vaccine caused harm, is not reason to say that vaccinations should not be used. It's like refusing to allow an appendicitis be operated on, even though statistics and best knowledge says that an operation is the way to save the life, because another child died due to a surgeon's mistake.

Of course mistakes need to be investigated, negligence punished, systems improved. But allowing random punters to make decisions like this for third parties is daft.

Certainly I wouldn't allow unvaccinated children (who are suitable for vaccination) into the school-system and would even be wary of allowing them access to the hospitals. It really becomes a case of whether you give parents the opportunity to deprive and endanger other individuals (their own children, and community) in this way.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:34 pm 
Offline
Planning Tribunal Attendee

Joined: Oct 19, 2010
Posts: 1041
Location: Dublin SE
Without knowing the facts this sounds untrue and sounds like scaremongering.

As you might guess I'm pretty pro vaccination, but I dont see how this could trump your right to refuse treatment.

Where there is an immediate threat to the life of the child eg blood loss and a parent refuses a blood transfusion there is always a judge on standby to over rule the right of the parent in favor of the opinion of the senior Doctor. vaccination is different as there is no immediate threat of life to the child.

That said vaccination is a modern miracle and I feel strongly that parents should vaccinate their children as per Government recommendations which are bassed on the recommendation from doctors and bassed on the best available evidence at the time. For some like Polio we need heard immunity ie almost everyone vaccinated for it to protect children.

Its worth mentioning that the only disease to have been made effectively extinct is Smallpox achieved by an agressive vaccination program. Polio would be extinct were it not for Muslim clerics scaremongering in a couple of counties from time to time.

Dont forget the diseases that we are vaccinating against cause immense harm and suffering.

_________________
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:55 pm 
Offline
Under CAB Investigation
User avatar

Joined: May 6, 2008
Posts: 2590
Location: the nearest faraway place
I won't be here and i haven't followed the medja so anyone got any concise summaries?

_________________
Sincerity is overrated, an axe wheeling murderer is sincere in their intent.
"laziness travels so slowly that poverty soon overtakes." Benjamin Franklin
"Every age gets the thought it needs" Ian Morris.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:58 pm 
Online
Nationalised

Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 27190
Location: Tullamore
catbear wrote:
I won't be here and i haven't followed the medja so anyone got any concise summaries?

Lunatics+do-gooders+pointless judicial over-reach+indifference+vindication-on-the-teat-of-the-state=what constitutes debate in Ireland...

Stay well away from all chat, read the text, see what you think, vote accordingly.

_________________
"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:03 pm 
Offline
Neo Landlord

Joined: Nov 30, 2008
Posts: 298
catbear wrote:
I won't be here and i haven't followed the medja so anyone got any concise summaries?


Image

Basically The Irish State wants to look after the kidz but they're not great at it, so.... do you think they should, there is the danger that they might eat them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:13 pm 
Offline
Nationalised
User avatar

Joined: Jan 1, 1970
Posts: 18126
I should have linked to the main article, http://www.indymedia.ie/article/102657

Some of the comments are also interesting.

_________________
Guerrilla Kaizen
Buckminster Fuller, "Politicians are always realistically maneuvering for the next election. They are obsolete as fundamental problem-solvers."
Image
https://twitter.com/nomoneyupfront
Open Window designs concept house for a pin user w/small footprint - > see sketches & pictures here <
Catbear - "I was comfortable with a couple of banks being married today, instead i wake up and find I'm married to the banks.""The wRight Poster"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:15 pm 
Offline
Private Tenant

Joined: Jul 29, 2009
Posts: 44
Col. Max Pyatnitski wrote:
Certainly I wouldn't allow unvaccinated children (who are suitable for vaccination) into the school-system and would even be wary of allowing them access to the hospitals. It really becomes a case of whether you give parents the opportunity to deprive and endanger other individuals (their own children, and community) in this way.It really becomes a case of whether you give parents the opportunity to deprive and endanger other individuals (their own children, and community) in this way.


If that is the case, people should be refused access to the country unless they have been vaccinated and screened for other illnesses such as HIV,TB etc?

If 30 kids in a class are vaccinated and 3 are not, surely the only kids at risk are the unvaccinated. So how are they endangering other individuals?

I have no issue having my kids vaccinated with BCG as it has been proven safe but what about when Swine flu or the next hysterical event occurs? The swine flu drugs were rushed to market and the companies indemnified from legal action if they caused adverse problems. If I am not mistaken Narcolepsy has been associated with the Swine flu vaccine which according to the HSE at the time was "perfectly safe" I'm sorry,but in an instance like this I do not want the state to have the power to use my child as a test subject.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:25 pm 
Offline
Nationalised
User avatar

Joined: Jan 1, 1970
Posts: 18126
A serious of reasons to Vote NO form the aps.ie

Quote:
10 Reasons to vote NO in the Children's Rights Referendum

1/ Your legal right under Article 42.5 of the Irish Constitution to decide "Best Interests" for your own child will be
handed over to the State. Parents will be reduced to Caregivers under the UNCRC.

2/ Your child can be placed for adoption against your will. You will not need to be accused or convicted of any crime and the arbitrary decision can be made my one person. The entire process will take place in secret Family Courts and you will be gagged and prevented from speaking out.

3/The State can decide for example to vaccinate every child in Ireland, and the parent, and even the child have no say in the matter. You do not need to be consulted or give permission. Joan Burton has already hinted that Child Benefit will be tied into vaccination records, this could be extended to school admission.

4/ The State can decide to give give Birth Control to children of any age, even if they are below the Age of Consent. The State can bring children to other countries for abortions without parental consent and even if the child disagrees. (X case, C Case, D case)

5/ The UN and the EU can make any laws for children without consent of the Irish Government if it wishes. This allows unelected people in the EU and UN to write Irish Laws without prior notice. This removes what little Sovereignty Ireland has as a nation.

6/ The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child is no mere statement of altruism, it is a legally binding Human Rights Treaty which, if Article 42 is changed, will allow unelected people in the EU and UN to re-write Irish Law. Fully ratifying the UNCRC will now make every other treaty that we have ratified also apply to all Irish Children. The entire landscape of Irish Law may need to be rewritten.

7/The UNCRC does not give Irish children any privileges they did not possess before. Parents have always vindicated the rights for their child. As children are not autonomous, the State can decide anything even if the child disagrees. Effectively, this also removes children's rights.

8/ The "Best Interest Principle" of the UN is nothing more than a slogan. Was it in the "Best Interests" of the 260 who died in Irish State "Care", or the 500 who went missing and many were later found to have been trafficked into prostitution and slavery? We believe if Ireland is to have a World-Class Child Protection System that "Best Interests" should be replaced with "to the Measured and Demonstrated Benefit of the Child" and it will need to be measured and demonstrated. Despite 760 children missing or dead in a decade, nobody has ever been held accountable. In the Baby P case 2 doctors were struck off and 4 social workers fired, in Ireland 260 dead, 500 missing and nobody was punished.

9/ The UNCRC only gives "Rights" to children but there is no obligation on the Government to comply. Children in developing nations whose Governments have ratified the UNCRC have the right to food and water and yet children are dying. Children are executed in some countries and the UNCRCC does not protect them, only their "Rights". Many of the countries that have ratified the UNCRC allow for Child Soldiers, Child Forced Marriage, the Death Penalty for Children and even Female Genital Mutilation. The UNCRC does not protect children, their parents protect them.

10/ The question we are being asked here is "do you trust the Irish State, the UN and the EU to make decisions for your children when your parental rights have been eliminated?" If you are not 100% sure you must vote no.
Please register to vote and vote NO - Our children are depending on you. For further information please visit http://www.APS.ie

_________________
Guerrilla Kaizen
Buckminster Fuller, "Politicians are always realistically maneuvering for the next election. They are obsolete as fundamental problem-solvers."
Image
https://twitter.com/nomoneyupfront
Open Window designs concept house for a pin user w/small footprint - > see sketches & pictures here <
Catbear - "I was comfortable with a couple of banks being married today, instead i wake up and find I'm married to the banks.""The wRight Poster"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:26 pm 
Offline
Neo Landlord
User avatar

Joined: Nov 29, 2010
Posts: 266
Location: Beyond The Pale
Quote:
Col. Max Pyatnitski wrote:
I feel strongly that parents should vaccinate their children as per Government recommendations which are bassed on the recommendation from doctors and bassed on the best available evidence at the time.

I feel strongly that parents should take time to research pros and cons before agreeing to vaccinations. Trust the government, medical profession and pharmaceutical companies? - not me.
Col. Max Pyatnitski wrote:
Most parents are not qualified to make decisions about matters like vaccination in any case, so I don't see the problem. Just because a particular vaccine caused harm, is not reason to say that vaccinations should not be used.

Really? I consider myself qualified to make a decisions on this. See how you feel if your child gets seriously ill after a vaccination.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:34 pm 
Offline
Nationalised
User avatar

Joined: Jan 1, 1970
Posts: 18126
So does this pin poll predict a NO since we are often contrary to the main stream trend or are we looking at a crazy YES majority cast by a minority of voters?

_________________
Guerrilla Kaizen
Buckminster Fuller, "Politicians are always realistically maneuvering for the next election. They are obsolete as fundamental problem-solvers."
Image
https://twitter.com/nomoneyupfront
Open Window designs concept house for a pin user w/small footprint - > see sketches & pictures here <
Catbear - "I was comfortable with a couple of banks being married today, instead i wake up and find I'm married to the banks.""The wRight Poster"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:08 pm 
Offline
Nationalised
User avatar

Joined: Jan 1, 1970
Posts: 18126
According to the proposed amendment

"In exceptional cases, where the parents, regardless of their marital status, fail in their duty towards their children to such extent that the safety or welfare of any of their children is likely to be prejudicially affected, the State as guardian of the common good shall, by proportionate means as proceeded by law, endeavor to supply the place of the parents"

This is wild in it's reach and steadfastly the most duplicitous and utterly hypocritical in claim made.

_________________
Guerrilla Kaizen
Buckminster Fuller, "Politicians are always realistically maneuvering for the next election. They are obsolete as fundamental problem-solvers."
Image
https://twitter.com/nomoneyupfront
Open Window designs concept house for a pin user w/small footprint - > see sketches & pictures here <
Catbear - "I was comfortable with a couple of banks being married today, instead i wake up and find I'm married to the banks.""The wRight Poster"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:19 pm 
Online
Of Systemic Importance
User avatar

Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 6782
Location: Somewhere up in the hills
Just for the heck of it I predict a 42% turnout and a 65% YES.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:40 pm 
Online
Nationalised

Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 27190
Location: Tullamore
Coles2 wrote:
Just for the heck of it I predict a 42% turnout and a 65% YES.

I think you're right on the turnout, I think the yes will be above 70%

This is based on extensive review of previous 'pin polls and their error rates...

_________________
"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Children Referendum Poll
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:47 pm 
Online
Of Systemic Importance
User avatar

Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 6782
Location: Somewhere up in the hills
yoganmahew wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
Just for the heck of it I predict a 42% turnout and a 65% YES.

I think you're right on the turnout, I think the yes will be above 70%

This is based on extensive review of previous 'pin polls and their error rates...
Scientific method, eh? I'm impressed. I just pulled the numbers out of thin air, and I think you're probably right about a larger YES vote.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 89 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: estarmam and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to: