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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Mar 31, 2010
Posts: 2489
Eschatologist wrote:
HiFi wrote:
Even as things stand - our tax rates for high-earners are much higher than Canada, Australia and the UK.

I ran a quick calculation on £100k single salaried person in UK and Ireland.

UK net earnings for single person on €116k is €75.9k. Employers NI is €14.7k.
So UK employee gets 58% of the gross payroll.

IE net earnings for single person on €116k is €68.5k. Employers PRSI is €4.6k.
So IE employee gets 57% of the gross payroll.

That's not a big difference.

Feel free to do your own calcs.


This calculator says 65% is the take home pay for UK for that amount?

http://www.netsalarycalculator.co.uk/100000-after-tax/


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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:55 pm 
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Posts: 330
Eschatologist wrote:
HiFi wrote:
Even as things stand - our tax rates for high-earners are much higher than Canada, Australia and the UK.

I ran a quick calculation on £100k single salaried person in UK and Ireland.

UK net earnings for single person on €116k is €75.9k. Employers NI is €14.7k.
So UK employee gets 58% of the gross payroll.

IE net earnings for single person on €116k is €68.5k. Employers PRSI is €4.6k.
So IE employee gets 57% of the gross payroll.

That's not a big difference.

Feel free to do your own calcs.

Employee cares not for what they get of the gross payroll. It's a meaningless calculation for them.

Difference between gross and net pay is all that matters. And even then, net pay is by far the most important part of that equation.


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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:07 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 4312
Poc wrote:
Employee cares not for what they get of the gross payroll. It's a meaningless calculation for them.

Difference between gross and net pay is all that matters. And even then, net pay is by far the most important part of that equation.

If you're going down that road, the employee doesn't care what tax they pay at all, only the net pay.

More likely, they care about quality of life.

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"It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when what is has worked out in your favour"
Tyrion Lannister


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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Poc wrote:
Employee cares not for what they get of the gross payroll. It's a meaningless calculation for them.

Difference between gross and net pay is all that matters. And even then, net pay is by far the most important part of that equation.

If you're going down that road, the employee doesn't care what tax they pay at all, only the net pay.

More likely, they care about quality of life.

Quality of life, is a different argument altogether. You started down the road of comparing salaries. I continued down that road.

The calculation of the gross payroll is important to the employer. Calculation of gross pay less tax is important to the employee. The calculation of the % of gross payroll that ends up as net pay is meaningless to either.

You framed your calculation as a trivial 1% difference, and assuming your calcs are correct, it's not; it's a €7,400 difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Dec 28, 2006
Posts: 5515
Petrodollar wrote:
dipole wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
Did anyone here watch the RTE Investigates program last night, 'Waiting on the List'? Anyone see it? Eye opening stuff.

No? Nobody saw it? Just not interested, eh?
Interested? Yes, Informed? Yes. I get a daily update of the latest madness from someone working in one of Ireland's largest public/private hospitals. At no stage is underfunding the reason blamed by my informant for the dysfunction in the hospital which is not surprising as Ireland spends as a percentage of (inflated) GDP as much as the best of the best worldwide.


I've a source in the Dept of Health who deals with policy and budgets. My source tells me that the only viable solution to Ireland's systemic health system problems is Sinn Féin's policy to create a single payer system on a phased basis and to obviate private insurance.

The source's analysis is that while GDP-health spend is very high the dual system is incredibly inefficient. Even simple things like billing private insurers for the use of public facilities, like theatres, becomes a running battle for public hospitals as the insurers welch on the full bill and end up paying only a certain percentage, months late. There's also some figures that suggest the public system is effectively subsidising the private system.

The policy of FF and FG is essentially more-of-the-same with some token gestures at the edges and supplementary budgets for the recurrent crisis. Their calculation is that ending the dual system will alienate middle Ireland used to buying it's way to the top of waiting lists.

Well I pay private insurance in a dual system that appears to work and my informant previously had a view of how much the hospitals (many more than a few)simply couldn't be bothered collecting from health insurers.


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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 4312
Poc wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Poc wrote:
Employee cares not for what they get of the gross payroll. It's a meaningless calculation for them.

Difference between gross and net pay is all that matters. And even then, net pay is by far the most important part of that equation.

If you're going down that road, the employee doesn't care what tax they pay at all, only the net pay.

More likely, they care about quality of life.

Quality of life, is a different argument altogether. You started down the road of comparing salaries. I continued down that road.

The calculation of the gross payroll is important to the employer. Calculation of gross pay less tax is important to the employee. The calculation of the % of gross payroll that ends up as net pay is meaningless to either.

You framed your calculation as a trivial 1% difference, and assuming your calcs are correct, it's not; it's a €7,400 difference.

The distinction between employer and employee taxes is irrelevant, they're both taxes on labour.

A consultant on net pay of X costs the NHS and the HSE almost exactly the same amount.

_________________
"It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when what is has worked out in your favour"
Tyrion Lannister


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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:23 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Apr 4, 2010
Posts: 4304
Poc wrote:
Employee cares not for what they get of the gross payroll. It's a meaningless calculation for them.

Difference between gross and net pay is all that matters. And even then, net pay is by far the most important part of that equation.


Employees care about total net remuneration; i.e. net pay + pension contributions (employer contributions + affordability of employee contributions through tax relief) + other benefits with monetary value, generally in that order.

As a personal example, I care more abut a larger level of employer's pension contribution or generous relief on AVCs than a small gross pay rise or marginal income tax rate reduction, I'm only slightly interested in a level of employer-funded health insurance above what I'd be prepared to fund myself and I don't give a hoot about free gym membership.

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People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.


Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations
Book I, Chapter X, Part II,


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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:05 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Apr 9, 2014
Posts: 1635
Eschatologist wrote:
HiFi wrote:
Even as things stand - our tax rates for high-earners are much higher than Canada, Australia and the UK.

I ran a quick calculation on £100k single salaried person in UK and Ireland.

UK net earnings for single person on €116k is €75.9k. Employers NI is €14.7k.
So UK employee gets 58% of the gross payroll.

IE net earnings for single person on €116k is €68.5k. Employers PRSI is €4.6k.
So IE employee gets 57% of the gross payroll.

That's not a big difference.

Feel free to do your own calcs.

I believe employers PRSI in Ireland is 10.75%


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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:38 pm 
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Property Magnate

Joined: Oct 11, 2012
Posts: 612
There are 3 public hospitals in Cork city (4 if you count CUH and the Maternity hospital separately), along with the Bon Secours and the Mater Private. For a city of 120,000. Ludicrous.


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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Holiday Home Owner
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Joined: Jan 8, 2008
Posts: 330
Eschatologist wrote:
The distinction between employer and employee taxes is irrelevant, they're both taxes on labour.

They are both taxes on labour, you're correct. That is the view looking at it from an employer's perspective though.

Eschatologist wrote:
A consultant on net pay of X costs the NHS and the HSE almost exactly the same amount.

But you did your calculation in the context of the pay scale need to attract someone to a job.

If I'm an employee looking at a job offer in two different jurisdictions, I'll do a quick calculation based on the gross pay figure offered to me, and the current tax regime and see what my net pay will be in each. That'll inform my decision greatly.

Suppose then the UK signals that employer's NI is to be doubled, and at the same time in ROI, income tax is to jump by 10%. In the UK scenario, I'm not affected (obviously my potential employer is furious), but the bottom line for me essentially doesn't change. UK isn't any less attractive as an employment destination, while the ROI tax change would affect my take home pay significantly.

I'd be surprised if there's more than 1 in 100 employees that even consider employer's PRSI as a factor in their pay. It's actually a fairly insidious tax as most employees just blithely assume that the tax they pay on their job is simply the difference between gross pay and net pay.


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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:14 pm 
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Property Magnate

Joined: Jan 4, 2010
Posts: 728
Location: Talamh an Éisc
Life takes many a strange turn. Thirty years ago, if you'd told me that around about now I'd be envying Liam Cosgrave's pension I would have nodded and backed away slowly. At least he gave some of it back.


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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:31 am 
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Planning Tribunal Attendee

Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 1368
HiFi wrote:
I can't link it - but a story in yesterday's Sunday Times reported that "Bereavement Leave" has been quite dramatically extended for Civil Servants following "negotiations" with the unions.

Death of Spouse or partner: increased from five to 20 days. (fourfold increase)

Death of close family member including parents, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren: increased from three to five days. (This leave also applies to in-laws and "immediate relatives" of cohabiting partners.)

Death of uncles, aunts, nieces, nephews: one day off which can be increased to up to five days in "exceptional" circumstances.

A quick, off-the top-of-my-head calculation has revealed that, had I been a Civil Servant under these rules, I would have had at least two months fully-paid leave over the last ten years in order to "grieve."



Civil servants had their working hours increased unilaterally by 2 hours per week in 2013.

This will easily lead to an order of magnitude more time at the office than will be lost from this bereavement leave arrangement.


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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:38 am 
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Nationalised
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Joined: Jan 4, 2013
Posts: 16431
Location: To the right of the decimal place
Skippy 3 wrote:
HiFi wrote:
I can't link it - but a story in yesterday's Sunday Times reported that "Bereavement Leave" has been quite dramatically extended for Civil Servants following "negotiations" with the unions.

Death of Spouse or partner: increased from five to 20 days. (fourfold increase)

Death of close family member including parents, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren: increased from three to five days. (This leave also applies to in-laws and "immediate relatives" of cohabiting partners.)

Death of uncles, aunts, nieces, nephews: one day off which can be increased to up to five days in "exceptional" circumstances.

A quick, off-the top-of-my-head calculation has revealed that, had I been a Civil Servant under these rules, I would have had at least two months fully-paid leave over the last ten years in order to "grieve."



Civil servants had their working hours increased unilaterally by 2 hours per week in 2013.

This will easily lead to an order of magnitude more time at the office than will be lost from this bereavement leave arrangement.


Do you honestly think civil servants now spend and extra 120 minutes per week in the office?

It extremely easy to fudge 24 minutes per day ("I took a short lunch"). Not so easy when it comes to blocks of a day at a time.

_________________
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"You see a mousetrap, I see free cheese and a fucking challenge." --Scroobius Pip


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 Post subject: Re: Public Service Costs - The Elephant in the Room
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:54 pm 
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Planning Tribunal Attendee

Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 1368
Mantissa wrote:
Skippy 3 wrote:
HiFi wrote:
I can't link it - but a story in yesterday's Sunday Times reported that "Bereavement Leave" has been quite dramatically extended for Civil Servants following "negotiations" with the unions.

Death of Spouse or partner: increased from five to 20 days. (fourfold increase)

Death of close family member including parents, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren: increased from three to five days. (This leave also applies to in-laws and "immediate relatives" of cohabiting partners.)

Death of uncles, aunts, nieces, nephews: one day off which can be increased to up to five days in "exceptional" circumstances.

A quick, off-the top-of-my-head calculation has revealed that, had I been a Civil Servant under these rules, I would have had at least two months fully-paid leave over the last ten years in order to "grieve."



Civil servants had their working hours increased unilaterally by 2 hours per week in 2013.

This will easily lead to an order of magnitude more time at the office than will be lost from this bereavement leave arrangement.


Do you honestly think civil servants now spend and extra 120 minutes per week in the office?

It extremely easy to fudge 24 minutes per day ("I took a short lunch"). Not so easy when it comes to blocks of a day at a time.


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