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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

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owenm wrote:
Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
I wonder how much this breath test scandal has cost the tax payer, after all why else do it?


It most probably cost some people their lives.



I don't understand what you mean? Are you suggesting gardaí who took themselves off the streets to process false claims, missed chances to catch the real drink drivers?

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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:53 pm 
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The fraud was not suspected because a change in behaviour by motorists in general was thought plausible?


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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:26 am 
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According to the Sunday Business Post, the Garda Commissioner only has to tough it out until the end of November before she becomes eligible for a €100k pension and €300k lump sum. Enough to make most people a bit brazen.

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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:09 pm 
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Location: In the Sandpit.
http://www.thejournal.ie/breath-test-su ... 1-Sep2017/

The comments from Gardai in the piece above are enlightening. I work in a very different sector/industry, but have KPIs driven by data collection and workflow management tools.
I have nothing against KPIs in principle.
When the KPIs are badly designed, and you are asked to give masses of information without understanding what its for, what it means or how its combined with other data, well you end up in a situation just like what appears to be documented above. The flavor of the comments in the article are very similar to the complaints I see in my workplace. As a manager its frustrating when I don't have the accurate data I need, but I can see the point of view and the pain of the staff I manage. And the process to change the tools and processes is long and frustrating.
There is a sweet spot somewhere for the data and statistics that you ask staff to gather or submit, in terms of time they spend and and the value that management gain, before staff end up spending more time in the tools than actually doing their jobs, productivity begins to suffer and everyone starts to get disengaged. I'm seeing this effect where I work. God knows where that sweet spot is, but I think organisations need to figure out how to run on much less data and statistics than they currently seek to collect.


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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:04 pm 
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O'Sullivan gone - "retiring" from today.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0910/90365 ... -retiring/

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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:06 pm 
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What intrigues me about the whole breath-testing scandal is how the Road Safety Authority and others escape without blame. The RSA in particular grossly exaggerated the proportion of drink driving deaths - by including passenger and pedestrian alcohol figures in their campaigns. To this day, journalists confuse "alcohol-related" fatalities with drink-driving fatalities.

And by forcing down the drink-drive limit, they put a huge extra workload on the Gardai....one which was never going to be achieved

Same thing happened in Australia a decade ago......

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/quee ... 42043f47a4
QUEENSLAND police are faking alcohol breath tests so they can meet a "stupid" political quota of three million drink driving checks a year, senior officers say.
They claimed overworked frontline police routinely manipulated SD-400 alcometers to generate dozens of false "zeroes" in a few minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:04 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

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The next commissioner needs to be from outside the force.

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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:38 pm 
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Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
The next commissioner needs to be use the force.


Fixed that 4 you. :-GC


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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:44 pm 
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HiFi wrote:
What intrigues me about the whole breath-testing scandal is how the Road Safety Authority and others escape without blame. The RSA in particular grossly exaggerated the proportion of drink driving deaths - by including passenger and pedestrian alcohol figures in their campaigns. To this day, journalists confuse "alcohol-related" fatalities with drink-driving fatalities.


Yes and no.

Walking while drunk is estimated to be as hazardous per kilometre as driving.


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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:13 am 
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Too Big to Fail

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Location: Cathair na dTreabh
Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
The next commissioner needs to be from outside the force.

Ahem
Dónal Ó Cualáin has taken up the role of acting Garda Commissioner..
He was previously a sergeant on the Aran Islands, then a Superintendent and then Chief Superintendent of the Galway division.


I suppose Aran Islands qualifies as 'outside'


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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:14 pm 
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If you want a laugh look at the video from the 9 O'Clock news of Paul Reynolds interviewing the GRA - Gardai reject falsifying breath tests


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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:50 am 
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Leo Varadkar (Taoiseach?) commenting on this on RTE Radio 1. Somehow he managed to miss the key point of the GRA statement that senior management had ordered the rank and file to falsify the breath tests and the falsification had been done under duress. Instead Mr Varadkar heaped the blame on the rank and file members.

If anyone expects reform of the Gardaí under Fine Gael this is a further indication that it will never happen.


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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:23 am 
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Coles2 wrote:
Leo Varadkar (Taoiseach?) commenting on this on RTE Radio 1. Somehow he managed to miss the key point of the GRA statement that senior management had ordered the rank and file to falsify the breath tests and the falsification had been done under duress. Instead Mr Varadkar heaped the blame on the rank and file members.

If anyone expects reform of the Gardaí under Fine Gael this is a further indication that it will never happen.


Does it say that though? https://gra.ie/14-09-2017a/

It does read to me like 'rank and file' members were pressured to meet targets, but nowhere states that they were explicitly told to falsify this particular statistic.

If meeting targets is part of your job and you can't do it, you don't just make shit up.

The statement looks like it's trying to excuse that. The problem in the Gardai goes from top to bottom - it's not a case of 'lions led by donkeys' here.


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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:15 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

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Just for a complete picture, Leo was on the news there saying ran anf file Gardai must be held to account individually for faking the tests. AND Gardai management also shoudl be held responsibl for encouraging/pushing the behaviour in the chase for stats


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 Post subject: Re: If you're the police, who'll police the police?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:41 pm 
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Location: Somewhere up in the hills
Just like the Housing Crisis and the Health Crisis, it seems now that reform of the Gardaí and Dept of Justice was another issue that Fine Gael just couldn't manage, and all their arsing around now looks likely to collapse the Government. Of course Fianna Fail might allow Frances Fitzgerald to resign before they have to torpedo the 'confidence and supply' arrangement but the longer Micheal Martin allows Leo Varadkar to hobble along as Taoiseach the weaker his own leadership appears. Can they get to the Christmas break? Maybe, but first they have to get to the end of next week, and a lot is going to happen between now and then. There may be trouble ahead...

In other news, the Acting Garda Commissioner has decided that no one should be held accountable or disciplined for the millions of fake breath tests.

Edit: Special meeting of the FG Parliamentary Party has been called for tonight at 10pm. Simon Coveney saying that the government will stand behind Frances Fitzgerald. The chance of an election has risen significantly.


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