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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:35 pm 
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... and it's costing money and ironically loss of tax revenue.

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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:41 pm 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:

...

Apologies for the late reply but I dont have much time of late.

The point is that the 'commercial realities' (as one poster calls them) that underpin the reasoning behind seeking to deplete wages in the unionised labour sector are nonsense. They do not exist. As is quite obvious from recent events there is no commercial requirement for the implementation of austerity measures. Neither is there any real requirement to cut costs across the public sector other than in an attempt to satisfy a quasi-Thatcherite ideological bias that advocates on behalf of the 1% who run the planet.

Indeed, given that the primary requirement of what are deemed high public sector wages is basically to afford shelter in a rigged housing market, and given the following posted on the Pin yesterday....


...



There's no requirement to cut costs - but we aren't talking about cutting costs. We're talking about increasing the wage bill by some 10%+

I do have sympathy for the drivers, in that housing costs spiralling have meant that the flat CPI index is actually not really all that helpful a gauge - living costs have risen. BUT this is an appalling way (big picture) of dealing with that. We should be concentrating on keeping costs of living down, not increasing wages, but the unions are an 800lb gorilla pushing in the opposite direction.

Ultimately it's other low skilled workers who will lose out long term, while we all lose out short term.

(For my part I have to travel between 3 or 4 venues for work most days, and the bus strike is directly impacting my ability to make a living - time in transit goes through the roof, so my normal "downtime", where I get deep work done, disappears. All I can do on those days is keep things ticking over, rather than actually making any real progress).


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:21 pm 
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As far as I'm concerned it's a dog-eat-dog world out there. If you have the leverage to get more money you would be dumb not to use it. Everybody else does, I know I do - I have no concept of loyalty to employers be they public or private. I work on contract - I aim that every contract pays more than the previous and most of the time that works apart from the odd economic collapse.

I work for myself - I am my own union - I do my own negotiating and I am organised about - if I don't win I walk away. If you are not working for yourself you are crazy not to be in a union - I fully agree that all unions are crap and lazy - but unions are democracies - they can be changed - when I started work in the 70s they weren't great but they were a lot better than they are now.

Careful featherbedding by the government and employers has pushed union bosses into a bracket where they are now above the 'little people' - most of them earn 100k or more while the people they represent earn less than half of that. They are closer to the bosses than the workers. Workers need to challenge that - if your local rep is crap stand for their office at the next opportunity or vote for people who will represent your interests with the same vehemence as if you were negotiating for yourself.

I certainly have no desire to hand out my tax money for nothing but there are a whole lot of grasping hands there already that we barely mention - the lawyers, the army of consultants who produce bundles of unused reports and investigations at costs of millions, the professionals (including folks like me in the IT world) who get exorbitant fees for little effort etc.. etc.. Then there are the projects and tax aids given to the vested commercial interests ( construction, tourism, multinationals etc. etc.) - all of these put the bus drivers in the ha'penny please when it comes to greed. If you don't give them money and they withdraw their labour - will you notice? But you noticed the bus drivers alright. The problem is if you give these guys money all they do is hang on to it - at least if you give money to people on low incomes they are more likely to spend it and stimulate the economy.


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:41 pm 
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metalmike wrote:
I certainly have no desire to hand out my tax money for nothing but there are a whole lot of grasping hands there already that we barely mention - the lawyers, the army of consultants who produce bundles of unused reports and investigations at costs of millions, the professionals (including folks like me in the IT world) who get exorbitant fees for little effort etc.. etc.. Then there are the projects and tax aids given to the vested commercial interests ( construction, tourism, multinationals etc. etc.) - all of these put the bus drivers in the ha'penny please when it comes to greed. If you don't give them money and they withdraw their labour - will you notice? But you noticed the bus drivers alright. The problem is if you give these guys money all they do is hang on to it - at least if you give money to people on low incomes they are more likely to spend it and stimulate the economy.

Pure whataboutery. I don't agree with Irish Water pissing away hundreds of millions on "consulting" but that has absolutely nothing to do with bus drivers. Why don't we pay bus drivers 100k? Or 200k? There has to be some rational basis for it, and the only rational basis is to benchmark against what they'd be earning doing approximately the same job in the private sector where price discovery happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:56 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
metalmike wrote:
I certainly have no desire to hand out my tax money for nothing but there are a whole lot of grasping hands there already that we barely mention - the lawyers, the army of consultants who produce bundles of unused reports and investigations at costs of millions, the professionals (including folks like me in the IT world) who get exorbitant fees for little effort etc.. etc.. Then there are the projects and tax aids given to the vested commercial interests ( construction, tourism, multinationals etc. etc.) - all of these put the bus drivers in the ha'penny please when it comes to greed. If you don't give them money and they withdraw their labour - will you notice? But you noticed the bus drivers alright. The problem is if you give these guys money all they do is hang on to it - at least if you give money to people on low incomes they are more likely to spend it and stimulate the economy.

Pure whataboutery. I don't agree with Irish Water pissing away hundreds of millions on "consulting" but that has absolutely nothing to do with bus drivers. Why don't we pay bus drivers 100k? Or 200k? There has to be some rational basis for it, and the only rational basis is to benchmark against what they'd be earning doing approximately the same job in the private sector where price discovery happens.


Yes AND the benchmarking needs to include pensions.

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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:06 pm 
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Jesus you'd swear that Bus drivers didn't get paltry pensions.
How about we ask about politicians and secretary generals pensions - is it something like early retirement and pension after 7 years.

The pseudo market ethic with toilet breaks being timed because some canny mcsavvy bus operator bullies his foreign staff into accepting it - that's now the benchmark ?

How about we allow tendering of The Department of Transport's responsibilities first?


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:10 pm 
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GameBlame wrote:
Jesus you'd swear that Bus drivers didn't get paltry pensions.
How about we ask about politicians and secretary generals pensions - is it something like early retirement and pension after 7 years.

The pseudo market ethic with toilet breaks being timed because some canny mcsavvy bus operator bullies his foreign staff into accepting it - that's now the benchmark ?

How about we allow tendering of The Department of Transport's responsibilities first?


False dichotomy. ALL of the above are grossly overpaid and overpensioned.

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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:15 pm 
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Dublin bus drivers are not "over pensioned". More like private bus drivers are "under pensioned"


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:22 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Why don't we pay bus drivers 100k? Or 200k? There has to be some rational basis for it, and the only rational basis is to benchmark against what they'd be earning doing approximately the same job in the private sector where price discovery happens.


And the 'rational basis' for what we pay the classes of people that I mentioned is? In general the rates we pay them are what they ask - 'Market rates' set by a number of cartels (or trades unions if you like) who don't seem to come in for the same level of control and regulation that workers do when they organise. Look at how long it is since we were told to sort out the legal cartel and how it still hasn't happened.

If we follow the rationale of the market then bus workers should get whatever they can successfully demand - a process they are going through at the moment - 'price discovery' if you like to call it that.


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:22 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Why don't we pay bus drivers 100k? Or 200k? There has to be some rational basis for it, and the only rational basis is to benchmark against what they'd be earning doing approximately the same job in the private sector where price discovery happens.


And the 'rational basis' for what we pay the classes of people that I mentioned is? In general the rates we pay them are what they ask - 'Market rates' set by a number of cartels (or trades unions if you like) who don't seem to come in for the same level of control and regulation that workers do when they organise. Look at how long it is since we were told to sort out the legal cartel and how it still hasn't happened.

If we follow the rationale of the market then bus workers should get whatever they can successfully demand - a process they are going through at the moment - 'price discovery' if you like to call it that.


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:45 pm 
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metalmike wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Why don't we pay bus drivers 100k? Or 200k? There has to be some rational basis for it, and the only rational basis is to benchmark against what they'd be earning doing approximately the same job in the private sector where price discovery happens.


And the 'rational basis' for what we pay the classes of people that I mentioned is? In general the rates we pay them are what they ask - 'Market rates' set by a number of cartels (or trades unions if you like) who don't seem to come in for the same level of control and regulation that workers do when they organise. Look at how long it is since we were told to sort out the legal cartel and how it still hasn't happened.

If we follow the rationale of the market then bus workers should get whatever they can successfully demand - a process they are going through at the moment - 'price discovery' if you like to call it that.

You need to be specific. For instance, barristers are sole traders by law and are not allowed to sell their labour through firms. The prices the State pays for legal aid are regulated. They have no pension entitlements. New barristers earn less than nothing. Many quit. Some barristers grow fat on tribunals and other long cases. Legal costs are high. There are many things wrong with the legal system; the system is rife with inefficiency.

I really don't see what that has to do with bus drivers.

Bus drivers have every right to strike. Their employers have every right to sack them all. That's what I'd do.

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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:53 pm 
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Posts: 1370
once again:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150315094 ... Resources/

In case if someone is wondering how much is DB driver getting:
Quote:
You will be employed to operate scheduled services covering late shifts on a 4-day week from Thursday to Monday with the opportunity to progress to a 5-day week with rotating shifts.

Salaries begin at €565.95 per week (4-day week inclusive of shift), increasing to €769.74 (5-day week inclusive of shift).

We will provide initial training and mentoring as well as on-going training and development (including periodic CPC).

On your appointment (following probationary period of 12 months) we will offer you a wide range of benefits including either a company pension scheme or a PRSA pension scheme, a subsidised medical scheme, free bus travel and concessionary rail travel.


Show me private bus company with 770€ per week pay for a driver here in Dublin or elsewhere. Who got data?


I wonder how this compare to Europe.
Polish lad gave me this website with job offers and salary estimates for each job in Germany:
https://www.gehaltsvergleich.com/gehalt ... usfahrerin
2k€ per month seems to be an average for regions.

In UK it seems to be around what 550€/week for 39 hours?
https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/bu ... KO0,10.htm

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06/2007: Central Bank predicts soft landing for housing
http://www.independent.ie/business/iris ... 96858.html
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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:09 pm 
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Joined: Mar 2, 2007
Posts: 4152
F**kers are over paid, what's new in public sector Ireland?


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:03 pm 
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Pill wrote:
F**kers are over paid, what's new in public sector Ireland?


That's the whole thing. It is all about new age Socialism in Ireland, social welfare class as well as public sector cast are both looked after very well compared to other EU countries. Private sector idiots like me have to pay for it. 50% tax on all incomes above poverty threshold for little or no public services.

It's all grand until the next big thing which will trigger recession. Then Public sector agreements will stay in power anyway.

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Why is it so windy here?

This is my best finding this year:
06/2007: Central Bank predicts soft landing for housing
http://www.independent.ie/business/iris ... 96858.html
It's all grand


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:51 pm 
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Something struck me today - if you ever wondered what it would actually be like to have Sunday Independent blowhards running the country, well now you know.
What would a Sunday Independent cabinet look like ? Are there enough cabinet positions for all that talent ?


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