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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:14 pm 
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Those German wages would have mandatory deductions for health insurance and pension still waiting to come out of them.
Any trade in Germany would have a multi-year training program too rather than a fast track boot camp.

I was watching a documentary about those on low wages in the Rhein-Neckar area which is a very wealthy part of Germany.
Salaries of 1600 to 1800 euro per month after 3 years training were typical for those in lower skilled jobs.
The low paid in my part of Germany earn less than in Ireland but have a better quality of life because they can afford to pay for the essentials like car, apartment, groceries and consumer durables. The outlook still isn't great but they are treated consistently and there is a feeling of fairness which saturates Germany society that is absent in Ireland.

Maybe the circus masters(illuminati or whatever you want to call them) of this whole big show in Ireland and Germany and the rest of the world are still bleeding the world dry but perhaps they have been better able to fine tune the model in Germany so that the poor still survive not out of any altruistic motives but just so that the wheels keep turning and the construct doesn't collapse upon itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:47 am 
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Mantissa wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
metalmike wrote:
I certainly have no desire to hand out my tax money for nothing but there are a whole lot of grasping hands there already that we barely mention - the lawyers, the army of consultants who produce bundles of unused reports and investigations at costs of millions, the professionals (including folks like me in the IT world) who get exorbitant fees for little effort etc.. etc.. Then there are the projects and tax aids given to the vested commercial interests ( construction, tourism, multinationals etc. etc.) - all of these put the bus drivers in the ha'penny please when it comes to greed. If you don't give them money and they withdraw their labour - will you notice? But you noticed the bus drivers alright. The problem is if you give these guys money all they do is hang on to it - at least if you give money to people on low incomes they are more likely to spend it and stimulate the economy.

Pure whataboutery. I don't agree with Irish Water pissing away hundreds of millions on "consulting" but that has absolutely nothing to do with bus drivers. Why don't we pay bus drivers 100k? Or 200k? There has to be some rational basis for it, and the only rational basis is to benchmark against what they'd be earning doing approximately the same job in the private sector where price discovery happens.


Yes AND the benchmarking needs to include pensions.


Of course it does....

So lets see shall we, pump the gospel of 'diversity' on the social side and then seek to benchmark peoples salaries and pensions to its inevitable results on the economic.....win win eh??

That's it in a nutshell folks.....first they came for the bus drivers etc.....time to wake up...

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"It is difficult to be certain about anything except what you have seen with your own eyes, and consciously or unconsciously everyone writes as a partisan.”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:18 am 
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Eschatologist wrote:
The first is that wages should be determined by "fairness" through some sort of system of central planning. So we think about a nurse or a bus driver or a banker, decide what that job is "worth", and pay that. It's clearly nonsense in the general case, since that would require communism. So the principal retreats to those areas of the economy in which competitive forces are not in play, i.e. the public sector. There are still several obvious problems, such as there being no way of determining what nurse vs train driver should earn, but more importantly even non-competitive areas of the economy compete for labour with other countries and other competitive parts of the domestic economy. So we have a recruitment crisis in hospitals because apparently we're not paying enough to attract internationally-mobile consultants. It's simply impossible to remove the idea of wage competition in an open economy, regardless of the competitive status of the employer.

So the reality is that the only workable system is for employers to compete for staff and for those less-demanding jobs which have a surfeit of labour supply to end up paying less.

That said, embedded in our society is the fairly reasonable restriction that you shouldn't/can't reduce people's wages in nominal terms because people have sticky financial commitments and it plays havoc with their lives.

So if wages are sticky on the downside, but competitive at the margin, you end up with new entrants getting a better or worse deal than incumbents. This is entirely reasonable trade-off, and the alternatives are worse.

The problem with the public debate is that nobody actually talks about these fundamental issues.

The unions freely admit that they don't give a fuck about grand economic arguments and they're simply responsible for getting the best possible deal for their members using whatever means possible.

Management plead poverty, I've no idea why - it's a stupid basis for argument. They should simply admit that their job is to pay people as little as possible just like everyone else on the planet, because that's how capitalism works.

The public take sides based on how inconvenienced they are, how hard they think the job is, or any other irrelevant factor.

The politicians sit on their hands afraid to damage their re-election prospects by taking a position.

It's infuriating.


Nonsense.

Where are the genuinely 'competitive forces' at play in any part of the Irish economy? Nowhere is where....indeed a modicum of self awareness would tell you that you're actually contributing to a forum that provides a decades worth of testimony to this very fact.

The unfortunate truth appears to be, that in 2016, people who continue to promote this type of 20th century economic spiel are either one of two things..... brainwashed true believers too old to amend their belief in what is now little more than an article of faith (despite reams of evidence to the contrary), or an agenda driven team member sent out to bat for the powers that be....with the agenda being the ultimate destruction of living standards of the working people of Ireland and further concentration of wealth in the hands of the already wealthy.

If you want to create an arena within which such matters could be addressed in a more reasoned, more civilized manner you would first need to address the underlying costs that cause the necessity for high wages to begin with. Think land and property prices for a start. After that, think banking bailouts. After that, the Republic of NAMA (code name for the bailout of the professional (non-bus driving classes of south county Dublin in the main)). After that, tax avoidance by multi-nationals (and now foreign owned vulture funds) well as by high net worth individuals.

Deal with each of these issues as well the cartels across other (professional) spheres as pointed out by another poster above, and then you can come seeking to address 'largesse' in the pay of Dublin bus drivers. Until then, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

Indeed, given all those other more pressing, more serious, more ignored issues above, the choice to come after the likes of unionised bus drivers is shown to be exactly what it is....simply another attack on the working people of Ireland.....essentially war by stealth.....

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"It is difficult to be certain about anything except what you have seen with your own eyes, and consciously or unconsciously everyone writes as a partisan.”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


Last edited by Poacher turned gamekeeper on Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:49 am 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Indeed, given all those other more pressing, more serious, more ignored issues above, the choice to come after the likes of unionised bus drivers is shown to be exactly what it is....simply another attack on the working people of Ireland.....essentially war by stealth.....


To borrow Joyces phrase the establishment is the old sow that eats her farrow. Unions are very much part of the establishment in Ireland. It would be more correct to say the working people of Ireland are being played by the establishment, ultimately it is the working people of Ireland who have to pay the increased bus fares and subsidies, the union bosses get to sit on various quangos and collect bonuses & expenses for strike negotiations, the "wuurkers" (I think the Unions have a training course where they learn the pronunciation of that word) have to reschedule their mortgage payments, so another day older and deeper in debt.


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:36 am 
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BoyRacer wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Indeed, given all those other more pressing, more serious, more ignored issues above, the choice to come after the likes of unionised bus drivers is shown to be exactly what it is....simply another attack on the working people of Ireland.....essentially war by stealth.....


To borrow Joyces phrase the establishment is the old sow that eats her farrow. Unions are very much part of the establishment in Ireland. It would be more correct to say the working people of Ireland are being played by the establishment, ultimately it is the working people of Ireland who have to pay the increased bus fares and subsidies, the union bosses get to sit on various quangos and collect bonuses & expenses for strike negotiations, the "wuurkers" (I think the Unions have a training course where they learn the pronunciation of that word) have to reschedule their mortgage payments, so another day older and deeper in debt.


I prefer James Plunkett's take on the Dublin of the day....

And yes the Union reps tend to have been bought and paid for (there are some exceptions)....but what alternative can you offer BB??

How do you suggest that the workers defend their conditions if not through the union mechanism?? And please, don't refer me to Mises....I'm searching for specifics ie in the here and now....cos as far as I can make out, without some form of direct collective action all your with left is with entering personal negotiations with Labour, Fianna Fail or the liquorice allsorts....some fucking joke that one.....

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"It is difficult to be certain about anything except what you have seen with your own eyes, and consciously or unconsciously everyone writes as a partisan.”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:15 am 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Where are the genuinely 'competitive forces' at play in any part of the Irish economy? Nowhere is where....indeed a modicum of self awareness would tell you that you're actually contributing to a forum that provides a decades worth of testimony to this very fact.

Wages are set competitively in my workplace and in the workplaces of my friends and acquaintances working in the private sector, and (as I did point out) even where wages are not set competitively, employers compete for employees amongst themselves and vice-versa.

So clearly your "nowhere" is a gross exaggeration.

There's so much armwaving in the rest of your post that it's difficult to identify the arguments to engage with, but you essentially seem to be saying that:

(a) competitive wage setting is free-market fundamentalism and that we should do something else instead. What, I have no idea, I'd be intrigued to hear your suggestions.
(b) until everything else is fixed, Dublin bus drivers should be paid whatever they want.

If that's not what you mean you might try to be clearer and self-summarise.

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"It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when what is has worked out in your favour"
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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:32 am 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
How do you suggest that the workers defend their conditions if not through the union mechanism?? And please, don't refer me to Mises....I'm searching for specifics ie in the here and now....cos as far as I can make out, without some form of direct collective action all your with left is with entering personal negotiations with Labour, Fianna Fail or the liquorice allsorts....some fucking joke that one.....



When you refer to "the workers" do you mean exclusively the employees of said government sponsored enterprise (GSE) or the general population of "the workers" in Ireland who both pay to use and additionally subsidise that GSEs operations. Whose conditions are you most concerned with? If it is general welfare then remove the subsidies and monopoly completely from the GSE and any other operators and introduce peak usage pricing, that way the true cost of running the operation is no longer hidden and the company can better manage its schedules and costs. The drivers benefit long term since their services will be be needed by the competition and the better drivers can play one competitor off against the other and bus companies have a benchmark to compare and control each others costs. Once you start interfering and favouring one group for political gain over another then in the context of the GSE all you are doing is transferring costs and risks to another group and that usually means the lowest paid workers who get on the bus at 6:30am get hit the hardest.


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:49 am 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Where are the genuinely 'competitive forces' at play in any part of the Irish economy? Nowhere is where....indeed a modicum of self awareness would tell you that you're actually contributing to a forum that provides a decades worth of testimony to this very fact.

Wages are set competitively in my workplace and in the workplaces of my friends and acquaintances working in the private sector, and (as I did point out) even where wages are not set competitively, employers compete for employees amongst themselves and vice-versa.

So clearly your "nowhere" is a gross exaggeration.

There's so much armwaving in the rest of your post that it's difficult to identify the arguments to engage with, but you essentially seem to be saying that:

(a) competitive wage setting is free-market fundamentalism and that we should do something else instead. What, I have no idea, I'd be intrigued to hear your suggestions.
(b) until everything else is fixed, Dublin bus drivers should be paid whatever they want.

If that's not what you mean you might try to be clearer and self-summarise.


That's not what I said but please continue....and mind my arms there while you're at it....

Plus I'm gonna take a wild guess as to the location of this perfectly free market space that you and your mates inhabit independently of the outside world and suggest that it exists in the same place as the rest of your quasi-religious devotion to 'morkesh' principles ie the space between your ears.....

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"It is difficult to be certain about anything except what you have seen with your own eyes, and consciously or unconsciously everyone writes as a partisan.”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:54 am 
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BoyRacer wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
How do you suggest that the workers defend their conditions if not through the union mechanism?? And please, don't refer me to Mises....I'm searching for specifics ie in the here and now....cos as far as I can make out, without some form of direct collective action all your with left is with entering personal negotiations with Labour, Fianna Fail or the liquorice allsorts....some fucking joke that one.....



When you refer to "the workers" do you mean exclusively the employees of said government sponsored enterprise (GSE) or the general population of "the workers" in Ireland who both pay to use and additionally subsidise that GSEs operations. Whose conditions are you most concerned with? If it is general welfare then remove the subsidies and monopoly completely from the GSE and any other operators and introduce peak usage pricing, that way the true cost of running the operation is no longer hidden and the company can better manage its schedules and costs. The drivers benefit long term since their services will be be needed by the competition and the better drivers can play one competitor off against the other and bus companies have a benchmark to compare and control each others costs. Once you start interfering and favouring one group for political gain over another then in the context of the GSE all you are doing is transferring costs and risks to another group and that usually means the lowest paid workers who get on the bus at 6:30am get hit the hardest.


And in the meantime what do the lads driving the buses do?

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"It is difficult to be certain about anything except what you have seen with your own eyes, and consciously or unconsciously everyone writes as a partisan.”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


Last edited by Poacher turned gamekeeper on Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:54 am 
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Ok, I'm out.

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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:25 am 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
And in the meantime what do the lads driving the buses do?


Get on with their lives just like the lads who built the houses, the lads who worked at the bank, or is there a special dispensation because the lads are employed by a GSE? Every year the lads disrupt their work routine at least once per annum, maybe it's time we removed the source of the lads unhappiness and the lads moved on with their lives rather than repeat the endless cycle of work stoppages that disrupt other lads lives.


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:34 pm 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Where are the genuinely 'competitive forces' at play in any part of the Irish economy? Nowhere is where....indeed a modicum of self awareness would tell you that you're actually contributing to a forum that provides a decades worth of testimony to this very fact.

Wages are set competitively in my workplace and in the workplaces of my friends and acquaintances working in the private sector, and (as I did point out) even where wages are not set competitively, employers compete for employees amongst themselves and vice-versa.

So clearly your "nowhere" is a gross exaggeration.

There's so much armwaving in the rest of your post that it's difficult to identify the arguments to engage with, but you essentially seem to be saying that:

(a) competitive wage setting is free-market fundamentalism and that we should do something else instead. What, I have no idea, I'd be intrigued to hear your suggestions.
(b) until everything else is fixed, Dublin bus drivers should be paid whatever they want.

If that's not what you mean you might try to be clearer and self-summarise.


That's not what I said but please continue....and mind my arms there while you're at it....

Plus I'm gonna take a wild guess as to the location of this perfectly free market space that you and your mates inhabit independently of the outside world and suggest that it exists in the same place as the rest of your quasi-religious devotion to 'morkesh' principles ie the space between your ears.....

You do not like it when your arguements are challenged. However as a long time poster I expected more from :(


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:47 pm 
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Luan wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Where are the genuinely 'competitive forces' at play in any part of the Irish economy? Nowhere is where....indeed a modicum of self awareness would tell you that you're actually contributing to a forum that provides a decades worth of testimony to this very fact.

Wages are set competitively in my workplace and in the workplaces of my friends and acquaintances working in the private sector, and (as I did point out) even where wages are not set competitively, employers compete for employees amongst themselves and vice-versa.

So clearly your "nowhere" is a gross exaggeration.

There's so much armwaving in the rest of your post that it's difficult to identify the arguments to engage with, but you essentially seem to be saying that:

(a) competitive wage setting is free-market fundamentalism and that we should do something else instead. What, I have no idea, I'd be intrigued to hear your suggestions.
(b) until everything else is fixed, Dublin bus drivers should be paid whatever they want.

If that's not what you mean you might try to be clearer and self-summarise.


That's not what I said but please continue....and mind my arms there while you're at it....

Plus I'm gonna take a wild guess as to the location of this perfectly free market space that you and your mates inhabit independently of the outside world and suggest that it exists in the same place as the rest of your quasi-religious devotion to 'morkesh' principles ie the space between your ears.....

You do not like it when your arguements are challenged. However as a long time poster I expected more from :(


Ive had enough.

We've been going round in circles here nearly a decade now and still its just drip, drip drip of corruption and robber banditry with the same set profiting at the expense of the rest of us....and seeking to intellectualise or make sense of it through the prism of economic theory affords it a legitimacy it doesnt deserve. Its fucking theft. Theft of peoples lives and families. Read the Vulturre fund thread. Read the Apple thread. Read the reams of threads documenting NAMA, Anglo, the rest of it. Is it really rational to remain reasoned and reflective???

Tomorrow night, as most others, here on the other side of the world Ill be meeting up with a group of men in their early 30s, all refugees (or whatever) of the crash of 08, none of whom ever expects to return home bar for Christmas etc. Last week, one of them assisted in the repatriation of another lads body who topped himself out here. Now you might obviously say that these are unrelated matters etc some of us cant help feeling its all connected.

So apologies for the tone today, but like I said, speaking for myself, Ive just had enough.

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― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:43 pm 
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Luan misjudges his time to snipe once again.
Today I sent a list of the planned bus strike days to someone I know who foolishly is taking a job in Dublin against my advice.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/ ... -1.2792088
There is a bus strike on their first day of work in a new city.
They took the job because it pays what to them seems a great wage but is poor by Dublin standards.
The apartment they live in would cost about 800 euro more in any part of Dublin than the fairly well located suburb of my city which they currently live in now.
They are 5 minutes from excellent bus, rail and light rail services here and they won't know how good they have it until they experience Dublin Public Transport.

As for the crash of '08; that was our chance to oust the establishment. Only thing I can blame the E.U. for is giving the establishment a lifeline of credit at the time with which to struggle through and protect the vested interests; this along with 23% VAT and pension raid on the poor people got them over the line.


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 Post subject: Re: Strike Season
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:02 pm 
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dipole wrote:
As for the crash of '08; that was our chance to oust the establishment. Only thing I can blame the E.U. for is giving the establishment a lifeline of credit at the time with which to struggle through and protect the vested interests; this along with 23% VAT and pension raid on the poor people got them over the line.


Yep this was the x-factor I'm not sure any of us saw so clearly. It's one that has been insidious in it's workout (time induced fatigue=hidden hand undectect). I guess tptb knew how to play their hand enough to protect themselves in the short-term. Still they are as they're back then dependent on the kindness of strangers as Morgan put it.

So in summary the EU setup a tab as such to finance a lost decade while the bandits made out like... well bandits.

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