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 Post subject: Re: The Dept of Social Protection thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:41 am 
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Agree that it's almost impossible to measure "poverty" - (which in Irish terms, is near meaningless anyway, given our very generous welfare.)

It's not even related much to income anymore and certainly no indication of standard of living. For example, a young married couple - both working with two children in creches would be crippled with the cost of the childcare, mortgage, commuting, property tax etc - all paid from after-tax income. If say, one of the kids had a medical complaint that involved ongoing expensive prescriptions (and I'm speaking from past experience here) they might barely make it through the month. And yet the Social Justice crowd would look at their headline gross double-income and suggest they were part of the "better off" class - and wouldn't deserve any tax breaks.

On the other hand, (and again speaking from experience,) when your kids get older and start working (while still living at home) things can improve quite dramatically - at least in the short term. Not only is the sprog now not requiring vast amounts of money for everything from college fees to clothes, entertainment expenses etc, but they are contributing to the household budget. (For any of you with younger kids - it's something to look forward to!)

("Deprivation" is a whole other matter - but when you have a media and culture that thinks a child doesn't need a mother and a father - it's a losing game.)


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 Post subject: Re: The Dept of Social Protection thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:19 am 
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HiFi wrote:
("Deprivation" is a whole other matter - but when you have a media and culture that thinks a child doesn't need a mother and a father - it's a losing game.)


You had me right up to the point when you took that turn at "conservative position unsupported by the research".

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 Post subject: Re: The Dept of Social Protection thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:28 am 
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Mantissa wrote:
You had me right up to the point when you took that turn at "conservative position unsupported by the research".

Well, it is a "position supported by conservative research". :D

http://www.regnerusfallout.org/

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 Post subject: Re: The Dept of Social Protection thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:28 am 
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Mantissa wrote:
HiFi wrote:
("Deprivation" is a whole other matter - but when you have a media and culture that thinks a child doesn't need a mother and a father - it's a losing game.)


You had me right up to the point when you took that turn at "conservative position unsupported by the research".


The "research" is absolutely overwhelming...it's a disastrous social policy. This from the "horse's mouth" - so to speak:

https://onefamily.ie/policy-campaigns/facts-figures/
Those living in lone parent households continue to experience the highest rates of deprivation with almost 60% of individuals from these households experiencing one or more forms of deprivation (EU-SILC 2014).he results of Survey on Income and Living Conditions (SILC) 2014, released on the 26th of November, 2015, reveal that one-parent family households experience the most deprivation (inability to afford two from a list of 11 basic necessities)in Ireland.
59% (almost three in five) of lone parent households with one or more children experienced enforced deprivation. This compares to 29.0% of the general population who experienced deprivation. Worryingly lone parent households were also at slightly greater risk of poverty than they had been in 2013.
In 2014, 11% of children aged 0-17, or 1 in 9 children, lived in consistent poverty. Consistent poverty means that these children are living in households with incomes below 60% of the national median income and experiencing deprivation based on the agreed 11 deprivation indicators. This can mean going 24 hours without a substantial meal or being cold because parents are unable to afford to heat the home.
Children living in one parent family households are almost twice as likely to live in poverty than other children- 23% of children in a one-parent family experience deprivation.
The groups that were already experiencing poverty before the financial crisis, including one-parent families, have been hit hardest.
Individuals living in households where there was one adult and one or more children aged under 18 had the highest consistent poverty rate at 22.1%.
For those living in consistent poverty, the types of deprivation most commonly experienced were an inability to: replace worn out furniture (67.0%), afford a morning/afternoon/evening out (66.7%) and have family/friends over for a meal/drink (57.2%).


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 Post subject: Re: The Dept of Social Protection thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:42 am 
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Oh, I assumed you were making a homophobic point but it turns out you're probably just arguing against lone parenting.

I can't believe that anyone who has actually raised children would think that people deliberately do it on their own if they have the opportunity to share the burden with another caring, responsible, reliable human being.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dept of Social Protection thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:15 am 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Oh, I assumed you were making a homophobic point but it turns out you're probably just arguing against lone parenting.

I can't believe that anyone who has actually raised children would think that people deliberately do it on their own if they have the opportunity to share the burden with another caring, responsible, reliable human being.


I once believed this too. Turns out it's wrong in some circumstances. When the state becomes the Father by being the absent provider, then the choice is simple for a sizeable minority.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dept of Social Protection thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:06 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Oh, I assumed you were making a homophobic point but it turns out you're probably just arguing against lone parenting.

I can't believe that anyone who has actually raised children would think that people deliberately do it on their own if they have the opportunity to share the burden with another caring, responsible, reliable human being.


Indeed I made the same assumption. The phrasing was about "a mother and a father" which is contradicted by research; in general, more parents good, fewer parents bad. The sex of the parents is largely irrelevant.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dept of Social Protection thread
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:14 pm 
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I should probably have used the word heteronormative rather than homophobic.

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 Post subject: Re: The Dept of Social Protection thread
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:30 am 
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The 'material deprivation' measure is deeply problematic.

It is completely subjective and depends entirely on the respondent's own assessment of their situation, specifically:

Quote:
the percentage of the population that cannot afford at least three of the following nine items:

[list=]to pay their rent, mortgage or utility bills;
to keep their home adequately warm;
to face unexpected expenses;
to eat meat or proteins regularly;
to go on holiday;
a television set;
a washing machine;
a car;
a telephone.[/list]


There are all sorts of issues with this. Heavy expenditure on booze, cigarettes or gambling will interfere with many of these.

What on earth is a 'holiday'? A pensioner using free travel to visit her daughter in Cork? A Carribean cruise?

Assuming they are in receipt of social housing, a lone parent with two children will not have a problem with any of the above if they are prudent, although keeping a car on the road will be a struggle.

People in employment may struggle with some of this (unexpected expenses, mortgage) too.


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 Post subject: Re: The Dept of Social Protection thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:15 pm 
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Noticed a statistic that over 2.92 million Public Services Cards (PSC) have been issued at a cost of €23.25m (excl. VAT).
That's 60% of the population ID'd so to speak!


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