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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:54 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Nov 4, 2011
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If it is indeed her thats paying the bulk of the rent and not the State!

You hve no idea of the situation of the Landlord in question. He could be Jimmy 40 gaffes or he could be a small time operator with just the 1 house and who wants to seel t now that he's retired. He may need the money for his own children.

I note you didn't pass comment on TD's advocating the breaking of laws. No surprise there!


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:16 pm 
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FreeFallin wrote:
If it is indeed her thats paying the bulk of the rent and not the State!

You hve no idea of the situation of the Landlord in question. He could be Jimmy 40 gaffes or he could be a small time operator with just the 1 house and who wants to seel t now that he's retired. He may need the money for his own children.

I note you didn't pass comment on TD's advocating the breaking of laws. No surprise there!
Well, let's look at it. Even if the lady is getting rent supplement (€5k per annum?) it would be far more favourable to the taxpayer to continue that situation than to spend €60k per annum to house her and her family in a hotel.

If the poor landlord desperately needs to sell the house to enrich his children then perhaps he could make an effort to find the family an alternative home to live in (if it even exists?). And what's the problem if he 's still receiving the rent in the mean time?

And precisely what law is being broken? Surely if a law was being broken then it would be a matter for the Gardaí? I'd imagine you'd find it's actually a civil matter rather than a criminal one.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

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There's no point trying to debate a subject like this with someone who has so little respect for rules/laws. Now if those rules/laws were put in by a left wing Govt or the likes of Sinn Fein, then I'm sure you'd have a different view.

Neither of us have any idea of the circumstances of the landlord. You automtically of course assume he's some well-to-do which may or may not be the case.
And it most certainly is not the Landlord's job to find alternative accommodation for tenants.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:34 pm 
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FreeFallin wrote:
There's no point trying to debate a subject like this with someone who has so little respect for rules/laws. Now if those rules/laws were put in by a left wing Govt or the likes of Sinn Fein, then I'm sure you'd have a different view.
What a weird thing to say.

Quote:
Neither of us have any idea of the circumstances of the landlord. You automtically of course assume he's some well-to-do which may or may not be the case.
And it most certainly is not the Landlord's job to find alternative accommodation for tenants.
I actually think there's a very strong moral argument that a landlord shouldn't evict a family into homelessness. Moral arguments are the basis for all our laws so watch-out! It could happen with the stroke of a pen.#

Just to clarify, you are going to present the case that a landlord should be permitted to evict a family into certain homelessness. :Let's hear it!


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:39 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

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He owns the f-n house. He seems to have been a good landlord for the 7 years the family were there. He gave the relevant notice as per the law.
Thats the case. Sin é.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:53 pm 
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FreeFallin wrote:
He owns the f-n house. He seems to have been a good landlord for the 7 years the family were there. He gave the relevant notice as per the law.
Thats the case. Sin é.
That's your case for putting a family into certain homelessness? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Image

Not much has changed, has it? I think it's time for a change.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:57 pm 
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Speculator

Joined: Mar 30, 2016
Posts: 407
Coles2 wrote:
That's quite a sound strategy that saves the State an absolute fortune. No point in the woman making herself and her children homeless just because the landlord wants to evict her. As long as she keeps paying the rent and keeps to the spirit of the lease agreement I don't really see the problem. Perhaps if the landlord wants to evict her he should find her an alternative suitable place for her and the children to live?

And yes, I know! Property right trump everything! I KNOW. It's awful for the poor landlord, but it's better than having more homeless children, isn't it?


How is it the spirit of the lease if he gave her notice to terminate and she is ignoring that ?

The guys owns the property , he lawfully gave notice, there is nothing to debate here


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:02 pm 
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cyrusir wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
That's quite a sound strategy that saves the State an absolute fortune. No point in the woman making herself and her children homeless just because the landlord wants to evict her. As long as she keeps paying the rent and keeps to the spirit of the lease agreement I don't really see the problem. Perhaps if the landlord wants to evict her he should find her an alternative suitable place for her and the children to live?

And yes, I know! Property right trump everything! I KNOW. It's awful for the poor landlord, but it's better than having more homeless children, isn't it?


How is it the spirit of the lease if he gave her notice to terminate and she is ignoring that ?

The guys owns the property , he lawfully gave notice, there is nothing to debate here


Of course there is. Make the moral argument for putting a family into certain homelessness. Let's hear it. What is the greater evil: that a landlord can't evict a family into certain homelessness while they pay their rent, or that they are made homeless because no other suitable properties are available to rent? Which outcome causes more harm?


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:05 pm 
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You think you can hide behind 'law' when legislation is created, amended, rescinded on a constant basis? Everything can change with the stroke of a pen.

As I've already said, moral argument is the basis of law. It there is a moral argument against evicting a family into homelessness then it can become law.


Last edited by Coles2 on Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:05 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 4851
Coles, don't be ridiculous. It's the responsibility of the State to house people who cannot afford to source accommodation for themselves, not whichever random landlord they happen to be buying housing from at the time.

_________________
"It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when what is has worked out in your favour"
Tyrion Lannister


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:16 pm 
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Back Home with Mammy

Joined: Sep 9, 2017
Posts: 70
cyrusir wrote:

The guys owns the property , he lawfully gave notice, there is nothing to debate here

For sure. This kind of overholding has to be discouraging some Irish from investing in housing. The likes of goldman sachs can handle the aggro through their agents, but it's got too tasty now for the average punter to enter this market.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:16 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Coles, don't be ridiculous. Its the responsibility of the State to house people who cannot afford to source accommodation for themselves, not whichever random landlord they happen to be buying housing from at the time.
Are you suggesting that legislation governing the provision of private rented housing doesn't exist? I think you'll find it does. The state imposes all kinds of conditions and regulations that inform the relationship between tenant and landlord. This is no different. In commercial leases similar clauses can be inserted so why not in residential? The idea that anyone could think that property rights are inalienable is not just 'ridiculous' but is actually completely absurd.

So let's get back to the moral argument. Who wants to make the moral case for evicting a family into certain homelessness?


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:22 pm 
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Epicurus wrote:
cyrusir wrote:

The guys owns the property , he lawfully gave notice, there is nothing to debate here

For sure. This kind of overholding has to be discouraging some Irish from investing in housing. The likes of goldman sachs can handle the aggro through their agents, but it's got too tasty now for the average punter to enter this market.

I don't see your point. The tenant is still required to pay the market rent. The tenant is still required to meet the conditions of the lease agreement. The only additional clause would be a burden on the landlord to show that similar accommodation is available that meets the needs of the tenant. This would not cause the angle of inclination or the pace of rotation of the the planet to change in any noticeable way. Life would continue on Earth as we know it.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:25 pm 
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I get a strong sense that there's going to be a barrage of abuse from the resident rentier any minute now...


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:54 pm 
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Real Estate Developer

Joined: Mar 17, 2008
Posts: 913
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/educati ... -1.3352512

So here's some good news on the housing front. UCD has got fast track planning approval for just over 2000 beds on its campus accomodation - that's probably going to release about 800 apartments or 400 house shares onto the market. The problem is that despite the fast track scheme the NIMBYs managed to reduce this from the initial proposal of just over 3000 beds. Apparenely the problem was proximity to the protected structures of Roebuck Castle and Roebuck Glebe -

Quote:
The block would have been adjacent to the protected structures of Roebuck Castle and Roebuck Glebe and close to the site boundary at Roebuck Road, a residential area. This block would “adversely affect the character and setting of the protected structures”, the board said. It would also have a “significant adverse impact on visual and residential amenities” of Roebuck Road and would be “contrary to the proper planning and sustainable development of the area”.


Roebuck castle is already a student accommodation block and as far as I can see Roebuck Glebe is a house on the other side of Roebuck Castle from the proposed block. These are both between the proposed block and any nearby housing. As far as I can tell you might be able to see this block from the road but on that basis the houses that were built in Roebuck castle grounds (and which probably house many of the residents whose "visual and residential amenities" would be affected by this building) should never have been built. This is something worth getting overheated about - this is part of the solution and it's already being screwed around with.


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