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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:21 am 
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Location: London, innit
Salamander wrote:
taipeir wrote:
I live on the 17th floor of 22 with panoramic views and the complex with underground parking and 24 hour security, garbage and recycling services , parcel collection and delivery, gardens and play area is a palace compared to those squat hideous things with cars occupying what should be green space.

At the entrance to my block there are restaurants , dentist, convenience stores, it's very easy living.
This is Ireland.

You'll get exorbitant management fees for starters, a lift that won't work and apartment complexes here aren't good on parcel collection and delivery (amongst other things.)

And at the entrance you'll probably get a Starbucks, barber shop and tattoo shop.

In Paris etc the caretaker - "guardian" (?) will typically live rent-free in the building and do a few hours in the morning - bring out the bins, sweep the footpath outside etc. It suits a semi-retired person/couple - 24/7 obviously costs a lot more.

I see parcel collection going down the ParcelMotel route - DHL are big on them abroad; I think there's one on Pearse St


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:11 pm 
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I somehow doubt that is the level of concerige service people would expect :)

For the record 24/7 cover at the minimum wage would cost circa €140k once allowance is made for holidays, PRSI, etc. In reality cover is normally provided 8.00 to 22.00 Mon-Fri and 18.00 to 22.00 at the weekend. This costs in the region of €50k p.a.

Out of curiosity how many apartments are in the typical Parisian block with a guardian?


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:05 pm 
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gaius wrote:
Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
gaius wrote:
temene wrote:

For Dublin, density of housing must increase. For the rest of the country, not as much.



look around at London, New York, Paris, Sydney - are these affordable places to live? Its pointless debating what to do with Dublin unless you debate the end goal.
What is it that you/we want?

Ireland is of the size that a large city in Dublin would affect the entire country

Why are you comparing a small city in global terms with genuine world cities?

We've the lowest population density in western Europe so overall we don't need to go crazy on height but the urban sprawl in Dublin is sickening for its size.


What is your desired end goal?
You say the sprawl is sickening, how do you reckon densifying will reduce the sprawl unless you plan on demolishing the outer ring to reduce it?
Anything you densify in the centre will fill up/more availability more population. No real change except the population increases. The outer suburbs remain so whats the goal?
One thing that really makes a difference is where your city centre is. If Dublin city centre was 20-40km to the west we`d have a huge reduction in congestion because there would be room for a whole load of routes into the city from the east. At the moment sea sits to our east.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:08 am 
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Joined: Oct 7, 2014
Posts: 995
Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:

[SNIP]

What is your desired end goal?
You say the sprawl is sickening, how do you reckon densifying will reduce the sprawl unless you plan on demolishing the outer ring to reduce it?
Anything you densify in the centre will fill up/more availability more population. No real change except the population increases. The outer suburbs remain so whats the goal?
One thing that really makes a difference is where your city centre is. If Dublin city centre was 20-40km to the west we`d have a huge reduction in congestion because there would be room for a whole load of routes into the city from the east. At the moment sea sits to our east.



I'd say minimising further sprawl is one vitally important goal.

Another is densifying the city and inner suburbs (for a debatable value of inner) with the aim of making high-quality public services (especially public transit) and housing much more affordable.

Big picture, anybody who wants to live within walking/cycling distance of their place of work should be able to - perhaps not in their preferred 3- or 4-bed semi-d, but in a high quality 3- or 4-bed apartment with amenities to make family living practical and desirable. We're a long way from running out of room to achieve this.

I'd also like to see a concerted effort to extend the city centre west. Maybe not quite the 20km you suggest (which by my measure is between Leixlip and Maynooth), but certainly there is huge unrealised potential in the Liberties, and a concerted densification around Phoenix Park over the coming decades would be a good thing in my book.

Although if all you want is to solve congestion, put in proper cycling infrastructure and you'll do so for half nothing. Easy peasy.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:42 am 
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Well there is that whole area between the M50 & Lucan that was planned as an expansion before the crash. In reality nothing should be done there until the rail network is improved in the city, as if there is building now, all it would do is increase congestion.
The "dart underground" really needs to be built first, from cherry Orchard to the city centre near the current Dart line.

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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:10 pm 
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Joined: Mar 17, 2008
Posts: 881
Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
One thing that really makes a difference is where your city centre is. If Dublin city centre was 20-40km to the west we`d have a huge reduction in congestion because there would be room for a whole load of routes into the city from the east. At the moment sea sits to our east.


This is definitely a huge contributor to our problems - but most world cities are port cities and that usually means the have a coastal edge - London is somewhat different but it still has a kind of an eastern seaboard. I was talking to somebody about London and they said that the Congestion charge was a direct result of Canary Wharf - they put a whole lot of jobs in the one part of the city that you had to travel through most of London to get to. The jobs/accommodation balance was completely out of whack and the public transport solutions were initially inadequate.

We're generating the same problem in Dublin - almost everything being built in the east of the city is office space - everybody that works there is going to have to come through the city on a non-existent transport infrastructure. Just stand at Pearse at rush -hour or at the bottom of the canal - now double the number of people that you see (walking, getting off trains, in cars, on bikes) and tell me how that's going to work.

I know from personal experience that the IDA are trying to get companies to locate away from Dublin (and particularly central Dublin) but the relatively cheap office space, the fact that their largely international workforce want to live in a city (although they are starting to detect that Dublin isn't like any other European city they've known) and the lack of any sort of public transport or inner city highway infrastructure to most parts of the city means that they are all heading to the docks. Even getting companies to look at Sandyford (which has excellent PT and reasonable road links (well... the M50)) is difficult because they go ... where are the coffee shops?, the cool restaurants? and why is there a huge fucking half completed building with acres of space around it when you have a housing crisis! (OK I added that last bit - but they do notice it)


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:59 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Nov 4, 2011
Posts: 5500
Location: SthDub
If ever evidence something was needed to deal with this crisis, one way or another, this case in the courts today!
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/c ... 61412.html
Quote:
DUBLIN City Council is paying €2,640 monthly for hotel accommodation three nights weekly for a separated homeless father and his three children rather than give him €1,500 housing assistance monthly to rent an apartment, the High Court has been told.
The man claims the Council is operating an unfair, irrational and discriminatory housing scheme in classifying separated fathers as “single” persons when allocating housing.
The scheme breaches his rights, including to equal treatment, under the Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights Act, he claims.

Aged in his twenties, homeless and unemployed, the man has access to and custody of his three young children for three days and three nights weekly.
Because the Council classifies him as a “single” man for housing allocation, he can only get €990 monthly Housing Assistance Payment (HAP).

He says he has sourced an apartment for a monthly rent of €1,500 but, rather than recognising him as a separated father and increasing his HAP to meet that rent, the Council pays €660 weekly to fund hotel accommodation for himself and his children for three nights.
On the other four nights, he sources homeless accommodation for himself while the children stay with their mother, also homeless, in hotel accommodation also funded by the Council.

The Council has assessed his ex partner, based on her status as a separated mother, as entitled to up to €1,900 HAP, he says. This unfairly differentiated between him as the children's father and their mother as neither parent has the children on a full-time basis and instead share the custody and access, he alleges. ...
...In court documents, it was stated the man gets Jobseekers Allowance of €193 weekly, plus a €60 weekly access payment....
...he parents presented with their children to the Council’s homeless unit in early 2017 and were housed together in emergency hotel accommodation. The man and his partner separated in summer 2017 but remain on amicable terms and have agreed access arrangements between themselves, it was stated.

So a couple with 3 kids split up and decide to share custody. She gets up to 1,900 per month for accommodation. He's seeking 1,500 for his gaff whilst being unemployed in Dublin where there is practically full employment and is getting over 1,000 per month dole. And i'd be fairly sure she's on unemployment or single mothers payments etc.
This couple, if he wins his case (which I'm sure we're all paying for his legal team) could end up with accomm costs of 41k per year because they decided to go their sperate ways, lets say 25k or so in dole/single mothers allowance, childrens allowance of 5k and I'm sure there's more top-ups etc along the way. North of 70k per year.
This madness will eventually blow up...unless they do another pension raid on workers retirement funds to keep the charade afloat


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:09 pm 
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Joined: Oct 20, 2012
Posts: 1766
FreeFallin wrote:
This madness will eventually blow up...unless they do another pension raid on workers retirement funds to keep the charade afloat


I hope so too, but the fact that most of thier welfare payments end up in the hands of landlords or hotels makes me think it will continue for a while yet

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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:02 pm 
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Joined: Jun 10, 2010
Posts: 855
FreeFallin wrote:
If ever evidence something was needed to deal with this crisis, one way or another, this case in the courts today!
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/c ... 61412.html
Quote:
DUBLIN City Council is paying €2,640 monthly for hotel accommodation three nights weekly for a separated homeless father and his three children rather than give him €1,500 housing assistance monthly to rent an apartment, the High Court has been told.
The man claims the Council is operating an unfair, irrational and discriminatory housing scheme in classifying separated fathers as “single” persons when allocating housing.
The scheme breaches his rights, including to equal treatment, under the Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights Act, he claims.

Aged in his twenties, homeless and unemployed, the man has access to and custody of his three young children for three days and three nights weekly.
Because the Council classifies him as a “single” man for housing allocation, he can only get €990 monthly Housing Assistance Payment (HAP).

He says he has sourced an apartment for a monthly rent of €1,500 but, rather than recognising him as a separated father and increasing his HAP to meet that rent, the Council pays €660 weekly to fund hotel accommodation for himself and his children for three nights.
On the other four nights, he sources homeless accommodation for himself while the children stay with their mother, also homeless, in hotel accommodation also funded by the Council.

The Council has assessed his ex partner, based on her status as a separated mother, as entitled to up to €1,900 HAP, he says. This unfairly differentiated between him as the children's father and their mother as neither parent has the children on a full-time basis and instead share the custody and access, he alleges. ...
...In court documents, it was stated the man gets Jobseekers Allowance of €193 weekly, plus a €60 weekly access payment....
...he parents presented with their children to the Council’s homeless unit in early 2017 and were housed together in emergency hotel accommodation. The man and his partner separated in summer 2017 but remain on amicable terms and have agreed access arrangements between themselves, it was stated.

So a couple with 3 kids split up and decide to share custody. She gets up to 1,900 per month for accommodation. He's seeking 1,500 for his gaff whilst being unemployed in Dublin where there is practically full employment and is getting over 1,000 per month dole. And i'd be fairly sure she's on unemployment or single mothers payments etc.
This couple, if he wins his case (which I'm sure we're all paying for his legal team) could end up with accomm costs of 41k per year because they decided to go their sperate ways, lets say 25k or so in dole/single mothers allowance, childrens allowance of 5k and I'm sure there's more top-ups etc along the way. North of 70k per year.
This madness will eventually blow up...unless they do another pension raid on workers retirement funds to keep the charade afloat


At least you know where your easy earned taxes are going.

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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:02 am 
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Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Posts: 8328
Location: London, innit
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-a ... -1.3275823

not sure if best thread but ...

Quote:
House a scene of ‘pure chaos and destruction’, court told
Woman suing council over condition of house, claiming it nominated tenants


A woman has told the High Court a house in south Dublin she rented out to a family of five was a scene of “pure chaos and destruction” when she regained it.

Joanne Penston said that when she re-entered her three-bedroom house at Rollins Villas, Sallynoggin, five years later in 2013, “every square and every corner” were damaged.

There were holes in the walls, a bed was cut in half and there were mattresses in the garden which was covered in rubbish as the tenants had not used wheelie bins, she said. Copper piping and floorboards had been removed and many windows and all the doors in the house were damaged and were off their hinges, she said.
Blood and other fluids were on the floors, which were also covered in material ranging from needles and broken glass beer bottles to broken toys, she said. There were no furnishings left and the upstairs toilet did not function.
“I don’t know how anyone could inhabit the house, let alone children,” she said. “Everything was broken.”
Ms Penston, a childcare worker, claims almost €70,000 worth of damage was done and she still owes money for the repair work. A Garda who came to the house shortly after the tenants left would not enter it and she could not get anyone to clean up the garden, she said.

Rental accommodation scheme

In her proceedings, Ms Penston, who has resumed living in the property, claims she had entered into agreements with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, known as the rental accommodation scheme (RAS), in respect of the tenancy, involving the council paying the rent.

She claims the council nominated the tenants, who took up residency by early 2008, and had represented to her they were suitable tenants and had been vetted. She relied on those representations when entering into the letting agreements, she claims.

The tenants did not take care of the property and the representations made to her by the council were false and negligently made, she alleges.

Ms Penston, represented by Mark de Blacam SC, has sued the council, seeking damages for alleged negligence. She claims the council is liable for damage caused by the tenant, other than wear and tear.
Represented by Denis McDonald SC, the council denies liability. It denies it nominated the tenants and claims they were in occupation before April 2008, when the tenancy agreement was entered into between the council and the landlord.
The council also denies it made any of the alleged representations to Ms Penston or that it was negligent or in breach of its duty of care to her.
The case continues before Ms Justice Marie Baker.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:16 am 
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Posts: 1603
Location: Ireland
slasher wrote:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/house-a-scene-of-pure-chaos-and-destruction-court-told-1.3275823

not sure if best thread but ...

Quote:
House a scene of ‘pure chaos and destruction’, court told
Woman suing council over condition of house, claiming it nominated tenants


A woman has told the High Court a house in south Dublin she rented out to a family of five was a scene of “pure chaos and destruction” when she regained it.

Joanne Penston said that when she re-entered her three-bedroom house at Rollins Villas, Sallynoggin, five years later in 2013, “every square and every corner” were damaged.

There were holes in the walls, a bed was cut in half and there were mattresses in the garden which was covered in rubbish as the tenants had not used wheelie bins, she said. Copper piping and floorboards had been removed and many windows and all the doors in the house were damaged and were off their hinges, she said.
Blood and other fluids were on the floors, which were also covered in material ranging from needles and broken glass beer bottles to broken toys, she said. There were no furnishings left and the upstairs toilet did not function.
“I don’t know how anyone could inhabit the house, let alone children,” she said. “Everything was broken.”
Ms Penston, a childcare worker, claims almost €70,000 worth of damage was done and she still owes money for the repair work. A Garda who came to the house shortly after the tenants left would not enter it and she could not get anyone to clean up the garden, she said.

Rental accommodation scheme

In her proceedings, Ms Penston, who has resumed living in the property, claims she had entered into agreements with Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, known as the rental accommodation scheme (RAS), in respect of the tenancy, involving the council paying the rent.

She claims the council nominated the tenants, who took up residency by early 2008, and had represented to her they were suitable tenants and had been vetted. She relied on those representations when entering into the letting agreements, she claims.

The tenants did not take care of the property and the representations made to her by the council were false and negligently made, she alleges.

Ms Penston, represented by Mark de Blacam SC, has sued the council, seeking damages for alleged negligence. She claims the council is liable for damage caused by the tenant, other than wear and tear.
Represented by Denis McDonald SC, the council denies liability. It denies it nominated the tenants and claims they were in occupation before April 2008, when the tenancy agreement was entered into between the council and the landlord.
The council also denies it made any of the alleged representations to Ms Penston or that it was negligent or in breach of its duty of care to her.
The case continues before Ms Justice Marie Baker.


The system is broken somewhere. The last person responsible for the above is the landlord.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:23 am 
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Joined: Aug 8, 2008
Posts: 3073
Location: Cathair na dTreabh
RentPressureZones forcing landlords to exit market and make tenants homeless
Since the RPZs were introduced, landlords are abandoning RAS and Leasing Schemes for local authority tenants.
Landlords have also threatened legal action against the Council, claiming breach of contract due to the new legislation which curbs the amount of rents they can charge.
“Since the introduction of these new measures, numerous landlords have decided to withdraw from these schemes and other have indicated that they will do so, based on the fact that the City Council are not adhering to the terms and conditions of the contracts governing the arrangements supplying these houses, specifically the rent review clauses in the contracts, which are based on prevailing market rates.”



I'm sure it is affecting private tenants equally too.
Well done, well done
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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:38 am 
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Joined: Oct 29, 2007
Posts: 11534
Location: Multiverse
slasher wrote:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/house-a-scene-of-pure-chaos-and-destruction-court-told-1.3275823

not sure if best thread but ...

Quote:
House a scene of ‘pure chaos and destruction’, court told
Woman suing council over condition of house, claiming it nominated tenants


A woman has told the High Court a house in south Dublin she rented out to a family of five was a scene of “pure chaos and destruction” when she regained it.

Joanne Penston said that when she re-entered her three-bedroom house at Rollins Villas, Sallynoggin, five years later in 2013, “every square and every corner” were damaged.

There were holes in the walls, a bed was cut in half and there were mattresses in the garden which was covered in rubbish as the tenants had not used wheelie bins, she said. Copper piping and floorboards had been removed and many windows and all the doors in the house were damaged and were off their hinges, she said.
Blood and other fluids were on the floors, which were also covered in material ranging from needles and broken glass beer bottles to broken toys, she said. There were no furnishings left and the upstairs toilet did not function.
“I don’t know how anyone could inhabit the house, let alone children,” she said. “Everything was broken.”


Even before the mention of needles, the moment I hear of copper piping being removed it brings me back to a previous experience of mine ...

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66555&p=901639&hilit=#p901639

Remember folks, it's now illegal for a landlord to refuse these fine, upstanding members of the community accommodation.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Aug 8, 2008
Posts: 3073
Location: Cathair na dTreabh
Govt not bothered to enforce existing regulations enough
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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:01 am 
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Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 1882
Those headline 'compliance' figures are misleading.

Non-provision of a microwave by a landlord is in breach of the law.

There is a world of difference between this and persistent damp issues.


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