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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:34 pm 
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dolanbaker wrote:
If you were to drop the minimum wage for workers in the countryside, they'll soon become ex-employees!
Possibly the worst thing to contemplate doing as it would would cause a collapse in the rural population and put more pressure on accommodation in the cities.
If the grand plan is to depopulate the countryside, that's the strategy to follow.


Not at all. In Poland we have huge differences in wages between regions which result in huge difference in costs. E.g. east side is very cheap to live therefore you can pay much less than in big cities. The growth there is slower, but there is a growth. In Ireland artificial high costs are killing industry in the countryside.
Look at last census data on Midlands, People are either working for state or they are on some kind of welfare.

If minimum wage would be lower in places like the example above, then someone might decide to make factory there and make something real. I am sure that there would be people ready to work for lower wages if there are jobs there. Dublin is a very different environment to any other place in Ireland, same like my hometown is very very different from Warsaw.

This however is against mainstream economist, so it does not matter.

btw. I don't think there would be massive depopulation.. but:
What is wrong with depopulation of regions which are hard to maintain anyway? Hospitals, schools etc..


edit.. Actually some EU smart ass once proposed same minimum wage on EU level. This would be an economic disaster for cheap places.

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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:35 am 
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rural Ireland has been depopulating for decades, maybe a new approach is needed (if any approach is needed)
lower min wages wouldn't work without cutting welfare so maybe trial cutting both somewhere and see if it does anything at all

Changing nothing leaves the status quo of depopulation in most places


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:22 pm 
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Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
rural Ireland has been depopulating for decades, maybe a new approach is needed (if any approach is needed)
lower min wages wouldn't work without cutting welfare so maybe trial cutting both somewhere and see if it does anything at all

Changing nothing leaves the status quo of depopulation in most places

That would rapidly cause internal migration to occur as economic migrants move from the remote backlands of Roscommon into the cities, it that's the plan, it would probably work.

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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:38 pm 
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dolanbaker wrote:
Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
rural Ireland has been depopulating for decades, maybe a new approach is needed (if any approach is needed)
lower min wages wouldn't work without cutting welfare so maybe trial cutting both somewhere and see if it does anything at all

Changing nothing leaves the status quo of depopulation in most places

That would rapidly cause internal migration to occur as economic migrants move from the remote backlands of Roscommon into the cities, it that's the plan, it would probably work.
Given that we have no shortage of rural housing and infrastructure surely the most sensible thing to do would be to implement policies to use it? Broadband? Encourage remote working? Encourage resource based manufacturing industries? Added value agribusiness? Tourism?


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:55 pm 
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I wonder in this new world of rent control if the DSW is prepared for the 4% increases that will start to kick in from January?


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:01 pm 
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Coles2 wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
rural Ireland has been depopulating for decades, maybe a new approach is needed (if any approach is needed)
lower min wages wouldn't work without cutting welfare so maybe trial cutting both somewhere and see if it does anything at all

Changing nothing leaves the status quo of depopulation in most places

That would rapidly cause internal migration to occur as economic migrants move from the remote backlands of Roscommon into the cities, it that's the plan, it would probably work.
Given that we have no shortage of rural housing and infrastructure surely the most sensible thing to do would be to implement policies to use it? Broadband? Encourage remote working? Encourage resource based manufacturing industries? Added value agribusiness? Tourism?

FTTH is currently being rolled out throughout the country, the fibres now pass my house but are not yet connected. when they are, we'll have up to 1Gb/s fast enough for any small business/teleworker. It's more to do with the mentality of business leaders who expect their "minions" to be present and correct and the fact that many prefer to spend many hours (and a lot of money) a week commuting to the office than being at home doing the same work.
Give me working from home any day over a long commute!

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"Democracy is like sausage, you want it, but you don't want to know how it is made". [John Godfrey Saxe]
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:32 pm 
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You are not wrong.

In terms of alternatives to Dublin I think that Ireland should encourage the expansion of towns like athlone to become true cities to take the loading off Dublin.
Investment in Cork should also be ramped up to gain more critical mass.

Interestingly as for telecommuting even countries like Japan
haven't adopted it en masse. In Japan millions of commuters pack on train for journies of up to two hours each way , work long hours in the office too.
It seems the government and employers think cash will move through the economy better this way and they can keep any eye on their employees plus socializing is important. These are all reasons that this INCREDIBLE waste of time still exists. We talking FOUR HOURS of each day just commuting!

I think there is a good chance that things will change rapidly now in some countries though because the hardware tech is improving As well as broadband speeds as mentioned.

For the company I work in travel expenses are major but not only that, we do a lot of our work by phone through multiple time zones and we do need better communication tools especially for worldwide meetings. We are also doing a heck of a lot more webinars and online marketing outreach now. All these trends are pushing us towards familiar and more comfortable with working online in different capacities. The last bit...dealing with customers interactively online is the key.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:53 am 
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dolanbaker wrote:
That would rapidly cause internal migration to occur as economic migrants move from the remote backlands of Roscommon into the cities, it that's the plan, it would probably work.

That won't work because as we know there is NOWHERE to PUT them in the limited number of towns and cities that are growing because there is economic activity there. Even the cities with less work and more accomodation available ( Limerick and Waterford) cannot possibly help cope with a strategy of programmed depopulation.

So Roscommon people will simply have to remain in Roscommon, most of them. :D

And now to Taipeir and 'growth poles'

taipeir wrote:
You are not wrong.

In terms of alternatives to Dublin I think that Ireland should encourage the expansion of towns like athlone to become true cities to take the loading off Dublin.
Investment in Cork should also be ramped up to gain more critical mass.


If you look at census data you will see that the sweet spot for a 'growable' town seems to be around 20k persons and a reasonable hinterland. This explains why Athlone is growing a bit and Ballinasloe nearby with 6k persons is not, Ballinasloe has not attracted an IDA project since Cross pens in 1970...they all went to Athlone instead. Athlone even had the largest company in Ireland once...remember Elan???? I don't think we can save small town and rural Ireland in most cases....the exceptions largely being those commutable to truly large towns like Kilcock or Athenry and there is always the true exceptions of Westport and Kinsale and Clonakilty which are premium tourist towns. But we only have a few of those.

Quote:
Interestingly as for telecommuting even countries like Japan
haven't adopted it en masse. In Japan millions of commuters pack on train for journies of up to two hours each way , work long hours in the office too.
It seems the government and employers think cash will move through the economy better this way and they can keep any eye on their employees plus socializing is important. These are all reasons that this INCREDIBLE waste of time still exists. We talking FOUR HOURS of each day just commuting!


Japan suffers from compulsive herd mentality, you must be seen saying Hai to the boss every day and he must see you. It is a bad example in other words. :)

Quote:
For the company I work in travel expenses are major but not only that, we do a lot of our work by phone through multiple time zones and we do need better communication tools especially for worldwide meetings. We are also doing a heck of a lot more webinars and online marketing outreach now. All these trends are pushing us towards familiar and more comfortable with working online in different capacities. The last bit...dealing with customers interactively online is the key.


And in that we in Irelan are a lot further ahead where we have decent (50mbit standard) broadband., I had to paint and decorate an alcove in my sitting room to 'look' like an office in the background on the webcam last month....instead of a home. :)

Lucky eir are starting to fibre my boreen in Galway so.

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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:24 am 
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I am in my first month of a new job which is exclusively work from home. While it has many advantages, I have to admit it's also been very tough in terms of isolation and I am not the type that minds being on my own for long periods of time, but 100% of the working day, 5 days a week has been tough. I am hoping as work picks up it will get easier, but I guess all I am saying is that it is not for everyone. On the positive side I have family coming over to visit for Christmas and it's prob the happiest I've ever been at the prospect of them staying for 8 days... normally would have filled me with dread, this time around I am really looking forward to the company!


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:18 pm 
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Coles2 wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
rural Ireland has been depopulating for decades, maybe a new approach is needed (if any approach is needed)
lower min wages wouldn't work without cutting welfare so maybe trial cutting both somewhere and see if it does anything at all

Changing nothing leaves the status quo of depopulation in most places

That would rapidly cause internal migration to occur as economic migrants move from the remote backlands of Roscommon into the cities, it that's the plan, it would probably work.
Given that we have no shortage of rural housing and infrastructure surely the most sensible thing to do would be to implement policies to use it? Broadband? Encourage remote working? Encourage resource based manufacturing industries? Added value agribusiness? Tourism?


The future is in urbanisation. I wonder when will Irish planners get this.
Meanwhile we had actions of removing houses from countryside and not building anything in Dublin

nearlyirish wrote:
I am in my first month of a new job which is exclusively work from home. While it has many advantages, I have to admit it's also been very tough in terms of isolation and I am not the type that minds being on my own for long periods of time, but 100% of the working day, 5 days a week has been tough. I am hoping as work picks up it will get easier, but I guess all I am saying is that it is not for everyone. On the positive side I have family coming over to visit for Christmas and it's prob the happiest I've ever been at the prospect of them staying for 8 days... normally would have filled me with dread, this time around I am really looking forward to the company!

find a co working space nearby?

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Why it was so windy there?... I am out.

For future reference, a 'soft landing' theorem:
06/2007: Central Bank predicts soft landing for housing
http://www.independent.ie/business/iris ... 96858.html
It's all grand


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:01 am 
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I disagree, I reckon the future is in decentralisation of a large portion of the workforce through telecommuting


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:17 am 
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Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
I disagree, I reckon the future is in decentralisation of a large portion of the workforce through telecommuting


Hotels, pubs and restaurants employ 100,000 people in Ireland (more or less).

How would ANY of them telework?

It is feasible for some parts of the IT industry (of which there are disproportionately pinsters) but not for large chunks of the economy.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:34 am 
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nearlyirish wrote:
I am in my first month of a new job which is exclusively work from home. While it has many advantages, I have to admit it's also been very tough in terms of isolation and I am not the type that minds being on my own for long periods of time, but 100% of the working day, 5 days a week has been tough. I am hoping as work picks up it will get easier, but I guess all I am saying is that it is not for everyone. On the positive side I have family coming over to visit for Christmas and it's prob the happiest I've ever been at the prospect of them staying for 8 days... normally would have filled me with dread, this time around I am really looking forward to the company!
My wife works from home and one solution she uses is to have activities outside the home in the evenings, martial arts, sport, volunteering etc..


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:08 am 
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Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
rural Ireland has been depopulating for decades, maybe a new approach is needed (if any approach is needed)
lower min wages wouldn't work without cutting welfare so maybe trial cutting both somewhere and see if it does anything at all

Changing nothing leaves the status quo of depopulation in most places


Not really. Yes, small rural areas have seen population decline since 1991, but others have seen growth.

Every county - even predominantly rural ones like Roscommon and Leitrim - have seen population growth since 1991.

If you want to see real population decline visit large parts of the former East Germany or the interior of Spain.


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 Post subject: Re: Grappling with the housing crisis: Fresh approaches need
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:48 pm 
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