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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 12:15 pm 
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Tfp2000 wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
It is also often the case that a vehicle is attempting to turn left through a stream of cyclists. Whatever about the law or sensible cause of action for cyclists (I wouldn't pass on the left in this case, even if it was legal), the driver still has a legal duty of care to avoid an accident, which means in practice waiting for a gap. Anyone incapable of understanding this really shouldn't be in charge of a motor vehicle.


now you are contradicting your self.

If a left turning motorist has to wait for a gap to form from a line of cyclist passing on his left handside to make a left turn it is the cyclists who are at fault. If a motorist were to undertake a car turning left who would be in the wrong. .

I'm not contradicting myself. All road users have a basic duty of care to each other (and to pedestrians), regardless of who has right of way. Accidents are avoided by accounting for other people's mistakes.

Tfp2000 wrote:
Either cyclists are part of traffic or not. When a cyclist is coming behind a car with it indicator on to make a left hand turn of course they should give way

Yes, the law says the cyclist should not pass left in that case. That doesn't mean the driver, having observed a cyclist ignoring the right of way, should just plough on regardless.

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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 12:22 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Tfp2000 wrote:
Either cyclists are part of traffic or not. When a cyclist is coming behind a car with it indicator on to make a left hand turn of course they should give way

Yes, the law says the cyclist should not pass left in that case. That doesn't mean the driver, having observed a cyclist ignoring the right of way, should just plough on regardless.


I never said the driver should plough on regardless .. however in almost all cases the cyclist will plough on regardless. Unfortunately it would be difficult for me to claim for damage to my car from a cyclist's corpse - so I will give way, but if I am making a turn and two wheeled hero is travelling a 30kph or more from my inside there will only be one person taking a fall .. while drivers have to be observant we can't be jedi's and use the force.

Cyclists pick and choose what traffic laws they want to adhere to and now their hipster lobby is having an effect on policy.

Some people like me need my car in the city centre .. not every day be a lot and it has become nearly impossible to conduct business in the city centre because of traffic, oneway systems and parking.


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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 12:30 pm 
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Tfp2000 wrote:
Cyclists pick and choose what traffic laws they want to adhere to and now their hipster lobby is having an effect on policy..


No, people pick and choose what laws they adhere to. Cyclists are people. So are drivers. These are often not different people, they're just the same morons using a different mode of transport.

Almost no drivers observe speed limits. These are laws.

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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 12:46 pm 
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MyTwoCents wrote:
AWAAF wrote:
I think that civilising the city is a great initiative. Cars are for getting from A to B. This can be achieved quite satisfactorily with a 30kph speed limit. Lets face most people will drive closer to 40kph but at least the complete speed merchants will stand out.


Yeah, except the effect, if anyone sticks to the limit, will be to increase congestion and the length of both rush-'hour's so they effectively merge into one long traffic-choked urban nightmare. Bring an extra long book for that bus journey. And forget about having kids and a job (unless 24h creches start opening).


au-contraire according to https://dnproulx.wordpress.com/2014/12/03/slowing-down-traffic-can-actually-move-more-people/


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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 12:55 pm 
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AWAAF wrote:

This is more of a question for the mathematicians here, but reading this bit:
Quote:
The capacity of a given lane depends on the time-intervals between successive vehicles. The slower the leading car drives in front of a queue, the closer follows the next car. From the point of view of capacity, it looks like the optimal speed level in urban street network is somewhere between 30 and 40 kilometers per hour (figure 5).

...it seems pretty obvious that this only works for a stationary picture. If you add in time/movement, the capacity of a lane depends on both the density of traffic on it AND the speed that the traffic is travelling at*.


*unless, I guess, they have done the maths and found that the flow reaches a maximum at those speeds. Actually that's probably what happened. Probably best to ignore this post.


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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 12:57 pm 
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Location: Cathair na dTreabh
69 people travelling - a bus, 69 bicycles, 60 cars.
The project used 69 people, as this is the capacity of a standard Canberra bus, and 60 cars, as this is the number occupied on average by 69 people.
Image

In this sense it explains the push to bicycling and public transport. Don't know what the CSO figures are for average journey distances travelled in Dublin.


Last edited by temene on Fri May 20, 2016 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 1:01 pm 
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temene wrote:
69 people travelling - a bus, 69 bicycles, 60 cars.

Actually, if you look at it, it's pretty clear that people walking in tightly huddled groups is by far the most efficient use of road space.


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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 1:04 pm 
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Barney Gumble wrote:
*unless, I guess, they have done the maths and found that the flow reaches a maximum at those speeds. Actually that's probably what happened. Probably best to ignore this post.

Yes, the label on the graph uses "time-interval". Throughput is directly related to time interval, e.g. 1 second time interval = 3600 vehicles per hour.

Image

It'll be interesting to see what happens to traffic when we get self-driving cars. I assume near-gridlock with office workers spending the first and last three hours working-from-car, with a bunch of stand-up meetings and lunch sandwiched in the middle. In fact the vehicles will probably move so slowly that in the case of a missed lunch it'll be possible to get out, buy food, and climb back into the car for the remainder of the journey.

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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 2:16 pm 
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Tfp2000 wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
Tfp2000 wrote:
Either cyclists are part of traffic or not. When a cyclist is coming behind a car with it indicator on to make a left hand turn of course they should give way

Yes, the law says the cyclist should not pass left in that case. That doesn't mean the driver, having observed a cyclist ignoring the right of way, should just plough on regardless.


I never said the driver should plough on regardless .. however in almost all cases the cyclist will plough on regardless. Unfortunately it would be difficult for me to claim for damage to my car from a cyclist's corpse - so I will give way, but if I am making a turn and two wheeled hero is travelling a 30kph or more from my inside there will only be one person taking a fall .. while drivers have to be observant we can't be jedi's and use the force.

Cyclists pick and choose what traffic laws they want to adhere to and now their hipster lobby is having an effect on policy.

Some people like me need my car in the city centre .. not every day be a lot and it has become nearly impossible to conduct business in the city centre because of traffic, oneway systems and parking.


+1 to all that

As for splitting hairs on what constitutes "jaywalking". I thought it would have been obvious that I was referring to the tendency for pedestrians to dart between moving traffic when crossing the road with little regard to its speed or distance. Pedestrians in Ireland basically do what they want and motorists are equanimous about it and live with it. You could say that they have the deadly vehicle so they're forced to be equanimous but in London drivers are more aggressive to pedestrians.

Cyclists behaviour towards pedestrians is different they cycle through crossing pedestrian groups and break pedestrian lights if no one is crossing at the time (despite the fact someone might be about to cross)


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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 2:26 pm 
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GameBlame wrote:
I thought it would have been obvious that I was referring to the tendency for pedestrians to dart between moving traffic when crossing the road with little regard to its speed or distance. Pedestrians in Ireland basically do what they want and motorists are equanimous about it and live with it. You could say that they have the deadly vehicle so they're forced to be equanimous but in London drivers are more aggressive to pedestrians.

Cyclists behaviour towards pedestrians is different they cycle through crossing pedestrian groups and break pedestrian lights if no one is crossing at the time (despite the fact someone might be about to cross)

So...equanimous motorists, but pedestrians and cyclists do what they want?

This is a totally warped view. People driving cars also generally do what they want, short of homicidally enforcing their rights by deliberately running people over.

Less than one in 10 motorists obey speed limit along Dublin quays
http://www.joe.ie/uncategorized/less-th ... uays/22807

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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 2:42 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
I thought it would have been obvious that I was referring to the tendency for pedestrians to dart between moving traffic when crossing the road with little regard to its speed or distance. Pedestrians in Ireland basically do what they want and motorists are equanimous about it and live with it. You could say that they have the deadly vehicle so they're forced to be equanimous but in London drivers are more aggressive to pedestrians.

Cyclists behaviour towards pedestrians is different they cycle through crossing pedestrian groups and break pedestrian lights if no one is crossing at the time (despite the fact someone might be about to cross)

So...equanimous motorists, but pedestrians and cyclists do what they want?

This is a totally warped view. People driving cars also generally do what they want, short of homicidally enforcing their rights by deliberately running people over.

Less than one in 10 motorists obey speed limit along Dublin quays
http://www.joe.ie/uncategorized/less-th ... uays/22807


I can assure that in morning rush hour, as a pedestrian, cyclists are a greater threat to me than cars. Motorists at morning rush hour do things like blocking junctions and stopping in cycle lanes. Those are inconveniencing to other road users but it's not comparable to a cyclist swerving his way through crossing pedestrians. Or creating a six lane road out of a narrow two way street.


Last edited by GameBlame on Fri May 20, 2016 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 2:44 pm 
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GameBlame wrote:
I can assure that in morning rush hour, as a pedestrian, cyclists are a greater threat to me than cars. Motorists at morning rush hour do things like blocking junctions and stopping in cycle lanes. Those are inconveniencing to other road users but it's not comparable to a cyclist swerving his way through crossing pedestrians.

Of the 32 pedestrians killed on Irish roads in 2015, how many were killed by cyclists?

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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 2:53 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
I can assure that in morning rush hour, as a pedestrian, cyclists are a greater threat to me than cars. Motorists at morning rush hour do things like blocking junctions and stopping in cycle lanes. Those are inconveniencing to other road users but it's not comparable to a cyclist swerving his way through crossing pedestrians.

Of the 32 pedestrians killed on Irish roads in 2015, how many were killed by cyclists?


That wasn't my sample as well you know. We're talking about congested Dublin traffic on this thread. And Owen Keegan's bonkers plan.

Does the RSA even track the number of pedestrians hurt by cyclists. If a cyclist leaves the scene of an accident with a pedestrian can they be prosecuted? How do you get their name if you want to take a case? Do you have the right to call police in


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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 3:03 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Of the 32 pedestrians killed on Irish roads in 2015, how many were killed by cyclists?


irrelevant to the discussion.

How many pedestrians have been injured by cyclists in that time frame? How many cars have been damaged by cyclists?


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 Post subject: Re: Owen Keegan's Brainwaves Thread
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 3:22 pm 
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Joined: Apr 29, 2009
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Barney Gumble wrote:
AWAAF wrote:

This is more of a question for the mathematicians here, but reading this bit:
Quote:
The capacity of a given lane depends on the time-intervals between successive vehicles. The slower the leading car drives in front of a queue, the closer follows the next car. From the point of view of capacity, it looks like the optimal speed level in urban street network is somewhere between 30 and 40 kilometers per hour (figure 5).

...it seems pretty obvious that this only works for a stationary picture. If you add in time/movement, the capacity of a lane depends on both the density of traffic on it AND the speed that the traffic is travelling at*.


*unless, I guess, they have done the maths and found that the flow reaches a maximum at those speeds. Actually that's probably what happened. Probably best to ignore this post.


Didn't read that in detail but I have a vague recollection of reading somewhere else that braking behaviour is relevant also. This would seem more favourable at lower speeds. If Irish drivers could merge at obstructions throughput would increase also.
We tend to do it at the start of bus lanes why not at other obstructions.


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