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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:14 pm 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
It is outrageous that you are paying insurance (on top of insurance!) for the inability of the regulators to put manners on the industry. Setanta, Quinn and RSA in recent years. PMPA in the 80s.


PMPA was long before my time but there was not an eyebrow raised in the industry when both Quinn and RSA went to the wall - everyone was waiting for it in both cases. Some of the stories I've heard about both companies are unbelievable. How nobosy outside could spot the alleged wrong doing leads to serious questions, if only someone would ask them

At least RSA has a UK parent to write the cheque

As long as the CBI is seem as a holiday, a "winding down" part of someone's career or a "lifestyle choice" at a certain point in people's lives I can't see it changing any time soon (I'm sure this isn't the case for all employees there but it is for a lot)

Skippy 3 wrote:
Driving without insurance is a completely tractable problem. It simply needs more resources devoted to detection and harsher sentences on conviction. A bit of data science would not go a amiss here - it is probably quite easy to statistically predict who is likely to be driving without insurance.

Judges need to take it seriously too. Multiple offences should mean imprisonment. The current approach of fines and bans just doesn't work.


Can someone shed any light on why ANPR and toll plaza cameras are not used to enforce driving without tax and insurance? Is it data protection or what?

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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:30 am 
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Joined: Jul 8, 2012
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Renting And Proud! wrote:
Skippy 3 wrote:
It is outrageous that you are paying insurance (on top of insurance!) for the inability of the regulators to put manners on the industry. Setanta, Quinn and RSA in recent years. PMPA in the 80s.


PMPA was long before my time but there was not an eyebrow raised in the industry when both Quinn and RSA went to the wall - everyone was waiting for it in both cases. Some of the stories I've heard about both companies are unbelievable. How nobosy outside could spot the alleged wrong doing leads to serious questions, if only someone would ask them

At least RSA has a UK parent to write the cheque

As long as the CBI is seem as a holiday, a "winding down" part of someone's career or a "lifestyle choice" at a certain point in people's lives I can't see it changing any time soon (I'm sure this isn't the case for all employees there but it is for a lot)

Skippy 3 wrote:
Driving without insurance is a completely tractable problem. It simply needs more resources devoted to detection and harsher sentences on conviction. A bit of data science would not go a amiss here - it is probably quite easy to statistically predict who is likely to be driving without insurance.

Judges need to take it seriously too. Multiple offences should mean imprisonment. The current approach of fines and bans just doesn't work.


Can someone shed any light on why ANPR and toll plaza cameras are not used to enforce driving without tax and insurance? Is it data protection or what?



ANPR is used in Germany, where there is no silly disk for tax or insurance - checked against central register for both. (we have a sticker on the number plate for the NCT equivalent, though). Motor Tax is paid by direct debit as well (you sign up when you register).
To declare a vehicle off the road you hand over the number plate(s), which are legally official documents...
So, I don't see a reason why data protection could be an issue. Recorded plates are deleted if they're not matched against the list of "interesting" ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:32 am 
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Someone said in a previous thread that Gardai do have ANPR available in their cars. I guess there should not be any issues then in having static ANPR cameras on major routes.

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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:42 pm 
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ANPR is used extensively in the UK as well.

I would guess that the main problem here is that a huge amount of Garda time would be wasted going to court as witnesses to show that the offence actually happened and then to see some judge let the offender off on a technicality or with a tiny fine. The amount of court time spent arguing the finer points of motoring law in this country is ridiculous - primarily because they are crimes that are committed across the social spectrum and the better off in our society can use their resources to make sure that they keep their licenses - they then set precedents that others can use.


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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 7:52 pm 
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metalmike wrote:
ANPR is used extensively in the UK as well.

I would guess that the main problem here is that a huge amount of Garda time would be wasted going to court as witnesses to show that the offence actually happened and then to see some judge let the offender off on a technicality or with a tiny fine. The amount of court time spent arguing the finer points of motoring law in this country is ridiculous - primarily because they are crimes that are committed across the social spectrum and the better off in our society can use their resources to make sure that they keep their licenses - they then set precedents that others can use.


Yep. This is a legal/organisational problem and not a technical one.


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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 8:05 pm 
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metalmike wrote:
ANPR is used extensively in the UK as well.

I would guess that the main problem here is that a huge amount of Garda time would be wasted going to court as witnesses to show that the offence actually happened and then to see some judge let the offender off on a technicality or with a tiny fine. The amount of court time spent arguing the finer points of motoring law in this country is ridiculous - primarily because they are crimes that are committed across the social spectrum and the better off in our society can use their resources to make sure that they keep their licenses - they then set precedents that others can use.


Part of the problem seems to be that many of our road traffic laws seem to be written by someone with the legal drafting skills of a slow child. I don't know why the government can't get decent legal advice.

It's not just traffic stuff either. I remember meeting a senior civil servant in the Department of Justice to review a draft piece of legislation they were going to put forward. It was at a "final draft" stage. I had to point out an error that meant one clause had the opposite effect than intended.

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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:17 am 
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Mantissa wrote:
Part of the problem seems to be that many of our road traffic laws seem to be written by someone with the legal drafting skills of a slow child. I don't know why the government can't get decent legal advice.

That's harsh.
I had more the impression they had the legal drafting skills of an averagely intelligent Irish setter puppy...
... with bowel control issues


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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:32 pm 
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From time to time I have to consult both EU and Irish law.

EU law generally has nice recitals which set out what the law is about, sensible numbering, and a relative lack of jargon. These laws are generally drafted, debated and amended in English by the way these days.

Irish law is replete with jargon, has bizarre lengthy titles, illogical chronology and repeated internal referencing that would make a Joycean struggle some times.

This all comes out of a small office off Merrion Square called the Office of Parliamentary Counsel. Common law drafting is an unusual skillset and those inside do it for long careers and rarely see daylight. The odd drafting genius can be found, I am told, but there are many who refuse to use technology such as track changes and others who refuse to attend meetings with those they are drafting for!


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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:29 pm 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
EU law generally has nice recitals which set out what the law is about, sensible numbering, and a relative lack of jargon. These laws are generally drafted, debated and amended in English by the way these days.

Irish law is replete with jargon, has bizarre lengthy titles, illogical chronology and repeated internal referencing that would make a Joycean struggle some times.

This all comes out of a small office off Merrion Square called the Office of Parliamentary Counsel. Common law drafting is an unusual skillset and those inside do it for long careers and rarely see daylight. The odd drafting genius can be found, I am told, but there are many who refuse to use technology such as track changes and others who refuse to attend meetings with those they are drafting for!

My guess is that it's deliberately designed thus.

We've got used to hearing about why otherwise logical and sensible courses of action can't be taken "because of legal advice", the people who issue such legal advice like to jealously guard their ability to issue such diktats and the inbuilt obfuscation aids them greatly in such aims.


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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:58 am 
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Got my renewal letter yesterday. € 750 !! Up from € 430 last year. :shock:

Quick check elsewhere online, I've been quoted € 460. Phew. And that's with including the 3 penalty points my wife picked up this year.

Were they just chancing their arm that people will think, sure its going up everywhere, there's no point in shopping around?

My home insurance premium went up almost 100%. Admittedly I was on an introductory offer but I managed to get a good reduction again by shopping around also.

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The real damage is done by those millions who want to 'get by'. The ordinary men who just want to be left in peace. Those who don’t want their lives disturbed by anything bigger than themselves. Those with no sides and no causes. Those who won’t take measure of their own strength, for fear of antagonizing their own weakness. Those people who roll up their spirits into tiny little balls so as to be safe. Safe?! From what?
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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:09 pm 
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Is that for 2 of you on the same car?


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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:13 pm 
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FreeFallin wrote:
Is that for 2 of you on the same car?


Me with herself as a named driver. It's an 06 1.6 petrol.

She has her own car too.

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The real damage is done by those millions who want to 'get by'. The ordinary men who just want to be left in peace. Those who don’t want their lives disturbed by anything bigger than themselves. Those with no sides and no causes. Those who won’t take measure of their own strength, for fear of antagonizing their own weakness. Those people who roll up their spirits into tiny little balls so as to be safe. Safe?! From what?
Sophie Scholl


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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 12:33 pm 
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We have a 2.2 diesel, 131. Me as named driver.
Up 20% gross on last yr but after increased discounts and a small bit of haggling, got the net down to €600, same as last year. This happened in the last week.
Other companies were quoting over 1k


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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:01 pm 
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Admiral are about to start setting premiums based on what you write in your Facebook posts! :shock:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... book-posts

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 Post subject: Re: Motor Insurance - A Canary?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:03 pm 
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Joined: Jul 24, 2012
Posts: 232
Would any of them come up with some technology to actually reward the likes of me.

20 yrs no claims, normal car, etc


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