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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:34 am 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 1882
Luan wrote:

These some called modest aspirations where beyond the reach of many in our parents generation also.


These modest aspirations are well within the reach of hardworking people outside Dublin, and in Dublin's outer suburbs too.

Inner Dublin is getting to be a place where home ownership is only within the reach of people with family wealth.

But this is the same as with most similar-sized European cities: Copenhagen, Helsinki, Brussels.

An average house for an average worker has been well out of reach in London or Paris since the 1990s.

But back to my first point, 80% of Ireland's housing stock is affordable, and much of it is still below build cost in rural locations.

Yes - there are big issues in Dublin with restrictive planning practices and unadventurous developers. But the fundamental issue - not much land and lots of people - is not going to change soon.


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:32 am 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Aug 8, 2008
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Location: Cathair na dTreabh
snaps wrote:
Nightmare to Let getting extensive coverage this morning on Radio1
Serious lack of legislation surrounding overcrowding and refusal of Councils to enforce minimum standards being debated. Watch here

Absolutely depressing for the known 30% who rent. Where's the political will to represent that 30%?


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:08 am 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Nov 28, 2006
Posts: 4764
Luan wrote:
These some called modest aspirations where beyond the reach of many in our parents generation also.


This is no excuse. Not dying before the age of fifty was beyond the aspirations of many of our grand parents.

That is the way it has always been would see us make no progress. It is lazy as an attitude.


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:15 am 
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Location: Australia
Once upon a time increasing home ownership rates was the aim of many western countries. What happened ?


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Aug 8, 2008
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Think I said this somewhere else already but I was talking to a Brazilian last week who lives in a house in Fairview with 23 other Brazilians. 6 rooms, 4 to a room. All students and working 20 hours per week etc.
Its obviously going on all over the place....during a so-called housing crisis....I was quoted €1200 for a small one bed flat recently...plan to re-locate abroad instead of committing to the Dublin rental market....

Liveline caller now says she shared a Clontarf room with Brazilian english-learning students.
"32 people were in a six bedroom house"
one bathroom, one kitchen :?
Then DCC evicted them for safety reasons..


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Posts: 24
There's always a woman on from Clontarf


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:48 am 
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Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
Once upon a time increasing home ownership rates was the aim of many western countries. What happened ?

Promoting home ownership was seen as the best way to combat the spread of communism after WWII, the sale of council houses in the early 1980's was the peak of this trend. Property owners tend not to support political ideals that would deprive them of their property.

Now that Communism has been defeated, there is no real incentive to promote personal home ownership anymore, The historical status quo of a wealthy few owning most of the property is returning.

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"Democracy is like sausage, you want it, but you don't want to know how it is made". [John Godfrey Saxe]
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:29 pm 
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Modern serfdom


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
Modern serfdom

Yes it appears to be going that way, the general public are gradually having their ability to become property owners eroded away in all the desirable places to live. I wonder if this is to ensure a more mobile workforce and one that is able to work for less as they don't have mortgages to pay.

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"Democracy is like sausage, you want it, but you don't want to know how it is made". [John Godfrey Saxe]
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Posts: 995
dolanbaker wrote:
Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
Modern serfdom

Yes it appears to be going that way, the general public are gradually having their ability to become property owners eroded away in all the desirable places to live. I wonder if this is to ensure a more mobile workforce and one that is able to work for less as they don't have mortgages to pay.


That plan would work a lot better if rents weren't higher than mortgages in many/most places around Dublin.


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:22 pm 
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muirgheasa wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
Modern serfdom

Yes it appears to be going that way, the general public are gradually having their ability to become property owners eroded away in all the desirable places to live. I wonder if this is to ensure a more mobile workforce and one that is able to work for less as they don't have mortgages to pay.


That plan would work a lot better if rents weren't higher than mortgages in many/most places around Dublin.


I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but the "plan" (omnishambles, more like) works quite well, given that the rents preclude people from saving the necessary deposits, so they're stuck with renting.

Of course, it's only a matter of time before some well-intentioned individual in the government or central bank decides to "help" people off the rental treadmill by offering 100+% mortgages and then, hey-ho back on the merry-go-round we go. :roll: |O

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People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.


Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations
Book I, Chapter X, Part II,


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:20 pm 
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Madness of Crowds wrote:
I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but the "plan" (omnishambles, more like) works quite well, given that the rents preclude people from saving the necessary deposits, so they're stuck with renting.

Of course, it's only a matter of time before some well-intentioned individual in the government or central bank decides to "help" people off the rental treadmill by offering 100+% mortgages and then, hey-ho back on the merry-go-round we go. :roll: |O

No real masterplan, just the fact that most of the financial elite think the same way on how to run the world, they all use similar tactics.

yes, the high rents in an unintended consequence of pricing the ordinary employee out of housing in desirable areas, but as you say the high rents will delay them from buying for many years, maybe never.

_________________
"Democracy is like sausage, you want it, but you don't want to know how it is made". [John Godfrey Saxe]
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild


Last edited by dolanbaker on Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:24 am 
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Joined: Jun 28, 2010
Posts: 299
I think higher housing costs are an inevitable consequence of the cost of consumer goods decreasing in real terms since the 1980s- The Dublin slum dweller 100 years ago spent 10-15% of their income on accommodation. A decent coat or pair of shoes could cost as much as 80% of your weekly income. Being in thrall to endless consumption has its downsides...


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:19 am 
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tommyt wrote:
I think higher housing costs are an inevitable consequence of the cost of consumer goods decreasing in real terms since the 1980s- The Dublin slum dweller 100 years ago spent 10-15% of their income on accommodation. A decent coat or pair of shoes could cost as much as 80% of your weekly income. Being in thrall to endless consumption has its downsides...


That actually is a sign that land owners/landlords have exploited the fact that disposable income has increased by upping the prices of the land & rents to soak up all of this income. Homebuyers & tenants have been led to believe that they must pay more or lose out.

With limited supply and property owners willing to leave empty than "sell/rent for less than it's worth", they have the upper hand.

_________________
"Democracy is like sausage, you want it, but you don't want to know how it is made". [John Godfrey Saxe]
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 4752
dolanbaker wrote:
tommyt wrote:
I think higher housing costs are an inevitable consequence of the cost of consumer goods decreasing in real terms since the 1980s- The Dublin slum dweller 100 years ago spent 10-15% of their income on accommodation. A decent coat or pair of shoes could cost as much as 80% of your weekly income. Being in thrall to endless consumption has its downsides...


That actually is a sign that land owners/landlords have exploited the fact that disposable income has increased by upping the prices of the land & rents to soak up all of this income. Homebuyers & tenants have been led to believe that they must pay more or lose out.

With limited supply and property owners willing to leave empty than "sell/rent for less than it's worth", they have the upper hand.

Except the land price component of a new build in Dublin isn't that big, maybe 50k from what I've read.

And arguably, land prices in urban areas should be relatively high to encourage efficient land use.

I'd choose a different set of arguments: whilst construction technology has improved, the high proportion of local inputs hasn't allowed the same production efficiencies as other consumer goods, so housing has become fundamentally more expensive. This is evidenced by the cost of building work on existing property.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-sty ... -1.3261810
Declan O’Donnell wrote:
A rule of thumb is you should expect to pay between €1,000 and €1,500 per square metre to renovate an existing house. That money should, first and foremost, go into the fabric of the house.
Expect to pay from €3,000 to €4,000 per square metre for new build works – that includes extensions.

People argue that government takes a large slice of construction costs, but government takes a large slice of the cost of all consumer goods. You don't notice the VAT, customs and excise charges on Chinese manufactured white goods but they're there.

Irish people have gotten poorer in terms of their ability to purchase locally produced goods and services, and that poverty has been disguised/offset by cheap imported goods.

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