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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:21 pm 
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Worstpigeon wrote:
On the census numbers differing from the CSO population estimates thing, by the way, one thing to note is that the census does catch visitors; some of the 80k discrepancy will be made of of them. Just looked this up, and I'm kind of astonished by the numbers, but there are 56k hotel rooms in Ireland, plus ~20k other guest accommodation rooms: http://www.failteireland.ie/FailteIrela ... f?ext=.pdf

There are also an unclear number of Airbnb and other fly-by-night room rentals, which won't be counted here.

Of course, not all of these will be filled, and not all will be non-national guests, and likely the rates of compliance are not great. But it's probably a part of the discrepancy alright.

Edit: Also, of course, the base figure for the CSO estimates is presumably the previous census (though I don't know how, or if, they account for the hotel issue). If rates of compliance differ from census to census (which seems at least plausible) you'd expect some sort of discrepancy.


There will also be Irish people abroad not counted in the census. April is not the height of the tourist season. The count is always performed in April so any counting issues should be repeated each census and balance one other out.

Note that the CSO's estimate of the 2016 population, still on their database, is also 80,000 less than the counted number.

For a more detailed analysis of population numbers see:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=66641


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:26 am 
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ChickenParmentier wrote:
Note that the CSO's estimate of the 2016 population, still on their database, is also 80,000 less than the counted number.

Inevitably, because the detailed breakdown of population (sex, age, etc) from Census 2016 has not been produced yet. This will have to be reconciled with the population estimates by age, sex etc.

Yes, the CSO should label this better but banging on about it is tedious.


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:28 am 
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Mantissa wrote:
RIP another thread. Three posters have nine (at my last count) anti-immigration threads going.


This house is (by all accounts) populated by low-skilled non-EU workers. Some are legal, some may not be

Immigration policy is of course highly relevant to the discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Do you know what else is highly relevant? Planning policy. And what else? Taxation policy. Both of those shape the property market in Ireland at least as much as as immigration. Do you know what would be extremely annoying? If in every thread 2-3 posters started going on about taxation policy, or planning policy. Then someone else came along and dropped pages of only peripherally relevant stats that have already been discussed and found wanting. Again and again. It would ruin the site, right? And yet 2-3 posters, obsessed with immigration, try and bend every thread they can that way.

ChickenParmentier wrote:
Facts always trump dogma.

That's one of those phrases that sounds mildly intelligent until you think about it. Facts are only useful if they're correct, and relevant. Pages of stats about PPS numbers, ignoring how those are actually issued, don't trump anything except my patience.

I'm not trying to "conceal facts" as you wrongly allege; I'm simply asking you (and you're far from the worst offender) to keep the immigration stuff contained so it doesn't pull other threads off-topic. This is not The Immigration Pin. There are other more specialised forums that would surely welcome a more in-depth debate about immigration. But remember that may of us here are immigrants, whether to Ireland or a different country, and may find the constant harping on about immigration somewhat offensive on a personal level, given that some posters here are clearly hostile towards us (let's not forget the post about how immigration is bad because different races should not mix -- probably one of the low points of the Pin and completely ignored by moderators).

For the record I don't think your posts are anti-immigration, ChickenP; you seem genuinely interested in data. I just don't agree with the conclusions you draw from the data, and you have not addressed any of the criticisms on them in other threads. Seems pointless reposting the same data here.

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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:48 pm 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
Mantissa wrote:
RIP another thread. Three posters have nine (at my last count) anti-immigration threads going.


This house is (by all accounts) populated by low-skilled non-EU workers. Some are legal, some may not be

Immigration policy is of course highly relevant to the discussion.


Enough already about immigration!!


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:47 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
I'm not dismissing principle-driven policy, but it's very difficult to have a useful discussion unless positions are clear.

I suspect that you're deliberately dissembling because you feel that a terse exposition of your views would be controversial, but whatever.

I'll attempt to summarise your last post...

- Foreigners are coming here being exploited by foreign and local businesses (agents, landlords, employers) with state agencies complicit.
- You advocate tightening/enforcing rules to stamp it out, in the interests of those being exploited.

Is that it? Are you exclusively interested in the welfare of the immigrants, or is there some other point that you're hinting at with your "big picture vision"? What is your vision for Ireland in terms of population size and cultural/racial/religious/ethnic mix?


Apologies but Ive been busy for the past two days.

Anyway, Im not sure if youre taking the piss but I referred to a 'grand vision' and you've sought to narrow that down to a tightening of some immigration procedures and an investigation into my predisposition towards the concept of ethnic diversity....I find that quite disappointing....

Anyway, as Ive stated previously, Im more interested in having a discussion about the direction in which Irish society is travelling or rather, the direction in which people would wish to see it travel. I made the point during the course of this thread in particular because the topic seems to be indicative of all that is wrong with the the ideology that has held sway across the western world for the past number of decades ie in the Irish context, four decades after the clearance of the last tenement slums in Dublin, the political and social ideologies that exert power across the institutionalised structures of state and corporate power are engaged in a process whereby such tenement slum conditions are being recreated. A 21st century incarnation of Strumpet City to an extent....

And personally speaking I say fuck that. I dont want it. I want something else. So the point of my post was to seek to perhaps encourage a discussion around what that 'something else' might happen to look like on the part of the educated eggheads around these parts given taht Im really only an oul plebeian....but obviously such nods to the potential of the human imagination are viewed in very suspicious terms in the Ireland of 2017.

So Ill go first. I appreciate that in the context of the world we live in, the following may seem childish or naive....so Id appreciate of you didnt laugh, at least not out loud.....

So PtG's grand vision of a future Ireland would incorporate some of the following....off the top of his head and beginning with matters that could be said to be at least partly derivative of the thread topic....

An island where all human life (in opposition to Minister Coveney's wish/prediction) is not focussed in and around Dublin.....how might such be attained?

An island where there exists opportunities for people not to have to emigrate to find work. How might such be attained?

An island where planning laws take more account of the people who will live in structures rather than those who build them. How might such be attained? edit Open WIndows old vision of larger towns/cities being developed along the lines of the old Georgian Square model (with higher density) sounds good....but maybe its too late already

An island where people had access to decent food at a competitive rate and where obesity levels, especially in children, were greatly reduced. How might such be attained?

An island where the health service was a lot better than it is now. How might such be attained?

A capital city where there wasn't what seems to be an entire generation of working class kids wandering its streets physically and spiritually adrift and dependent on heroin and other such substances. How might such be attained? Indeed, what the fuck is so wrong with this society that it has spawned this horror on such a scale? Furthermore, how in Gods name can a supposedly affluent, western society (if thats what it actually is) of five million people be capable of producing an organised mafia on a scale that is comparable in depravity and viciousness (as well as monetary terms) to similar such outfits from places such as Colombia and Russia? Its actually quite incredible.

Communities where people actually knew their neighbours and looked out for one another rather than living in apartment blocks where nobody knows anybody else, where isolation and suicides (according to Guards) are quite common. Again, how might such be attained?

An island where people (especially the elderly) living in rural communities are supported with proper health and transport facilities and where fear of crime wasnt such an issue for many. How might such be attained?

An island where the elected representatives as well as the state apparatus, rather than seemingly operating to the detriment of the majority and in the interest of the few, actually was fit for purpose. How might such be attained?

An island where local small businesses and community endeavours were encouraged and assisted rather than being taxed and rated to oblivion.....where multi-nationals paid their way....where the prevailing culture that informed the decision making process of legislators emanated from below rather than being a top-down effort....

And where honest debate about issues that change the entire makeup of peoples towns and neighbourhoods, such as mass immigration, could be had in an open and honest manner without being lectured to, sneered at or labelled various 'ist words by others from more salubrious, less 'diverse' parts of town...for what its worth, and in response to what you've asked me about my own attitude to same, I think a degree of immigration into any society is a good thing. I dont however, think that uncontrolled mass inward migration of people who then cluster together in ethnic enclaves as per the norm in some of our neighbours is a good thing. I believe it mitigates against integration and against any genuine inter-cultural exchange and merely creates distrust and future ethnic strife. IMO a proper immigration policy designed to help achieve the goals that this society sets for itself in economic (and, to a degree, from the cultural enhancement of managed immigration) terms would be a good thing and would also result in a better outcome for the 40 or so kids sleeping in the house as per the newspaper article.

Anyway, I could go on all night....but you get the idea...these are notions....I dont expect anyone to do anything other than laugh at most of them. Others here might have hugely different ideas.....which is fine....but to restate, conceiving of policy for its own sake without any 'dream' or vision of where you want to get to is IMO ridiculous....thats what politics does at present....problem is nobody appears to know what they want....so we just keep going round in circles

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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:13 am 
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Thank you for a worthwhile explicit and detailed post PTG. It is much appreciated by me.

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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:07 am 
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PTG, it's interesting to read that all in one place but it's impossible to discuss 10 different things in a single thread on an internet forum without it degrading into a hundred different streams of consciousness, unless you have a way of tying them in to one or two common root causes.

The 40 tenant thing has a simple policy solution, proper enforcement of rules about rental standards. That's a supply-side measure. Another one would be cracking down on the "education" industry that's facilitating and profiting from abuse of visa conditions of non-EU immigrants.

A demand-side policy measure might be going after the tenants and deporting them, and then signalling that Ireland is not open for this sort of business (take it to the UK).

I'm not necessarily advocating those policies, I'm just outlining them as a basis for discussion.

As for root causes, I have one: Irish people seem to want weak institutions.

If you have a better way to anchor the discussion I'm all eyes.

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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:56 am 
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A friend of mine is a chef in a somewhat trendy restaurant in Dublin.

He says all the kitchen porter work is done by Brazilian guys in their 20s enrolled in language schools.

When one leaves they find another to replace him. They tend to live in very cramped conditions.

He reckons the main target of their year in Ireland - to party a lot and improve their English - is fulfilled.


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:55 am 
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Eschatologist wrote:
PTG, it's interesting to read that all in one place but it's impossible to discuss 10 different things in a single thread on an internet forum without it degrading into a hundred different streams of consciousness, unless you have a way of tying them in to one or two common root causes.

The 40 tenant thing has a simple policy solution, proper enforcement of rules about rental standards. That's a supply-side measure. Another one would be cracking down on the "education" industry that's facilitating and profiting from abuse of visa conditions of non-EU immigrants.

A demand-side policy measure might be going after the tenants and deporting them, and then signalling that Ireland is not open for this sort of business (take it to the UK).

I'm not necessarily advocating those policies, I'm just outlining them as a basis for discussion.

As for root causes, I have one: Irish people seem to want weak institutions.

If you have a better way to anchor the discussion I'm all eyes.


Those 'policies' were listed as solutions to this individual episode three pages ago....meaning the essence of your line of questioning since then has been an attempt to engage in an 'exposé' of motivations on my part that you appear to disapprove of.

I consider that therefore to have been an immense waste of time.

Have you nothing to say about the wider ideology that underpins the global migration industry, one small result of which being the subject matter of this thread? Indeed in the context of your approach to my initial suggestions, you might start considering who it is that is actually benefitting from this as well as whether it is more actually 'racist' to be in favour or against??? And why?

Beyond that, what of the debates around economic necessity versus the economic desperation? The brain drain from developing countries? The extraction of the best and brightest from towns and villages in developing countries? The benefits that accrue from the funds that that they remit versus the impact upon labour standards in developed countries? The impact on long standing communities of large influxes of often transient people who save save and return? Indeed, how should planning law and policy seek to take account of such a phenomenon, if as some would suggest, it is here to stay indefinitely? How relevant are the experiences of other countries, similar to Ireland, who have been down that route already, for Irish society, and what lessons can be learned from them, especially in terms of those who wish to stay here long term? How should housing and education policy be primed to take account of this? What of migration laws that issue working visas to people that make their visa dependent on their retention by particular companies? What of a visa regime that allows such company-specific visas to issue on a short term basis to workers who are not subject to local labour laws?

All only the tip of the iceberg....until finally, finally, finally, you arrive at the question of what is best for Irish society? And why? Arguments for and against.....

To retiterate, how anyone can seek to construct policy around this without having considered all these matters and many more as a single item within a grander visions of in which direction the future is travelling is beyond me.

In essence its about time that a proper public debate about what type of country/what type of society Ireland is supposed to be was had....and all voices need to be heard, not just those who the mainstream ie the insiders who have continuously benefitted thus far, find palatable.

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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:53 pm 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
To retiterate, how anyone can seek to construct policy around this without having considered all these matters and many more as a single item within a grander visions of in which direction the future is travelling is beyond me.

But you clearly have considered all of these matters, and yet you still refuse to either elaborate on specific policy measures (unless I've missed that elaboration) or disclose your core beliefs.

In short: you're dissembling.

As for wasting time, you'd waste less of it if you used fewer words.

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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:06 pm 
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Eschatologist wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
To retiterate, how anyone can seek to construct policy around this without having considered all these matters and many more as a single item within a grander visions of in which direction the future is travelling is beyond me.

But you clearly have considered all of these matters, and yet you still refuse to either elaborate on specific policy measures (unless I've missed that elaboration) or disclose your core beliefs.

In short: you're dissembling.

As for wasting time, you'd waste less of it if you used fewer words.


Now you're just being deliberately obtuse ie taking the piss

Allow me attempt to simplify with a view to perhaps arriving at a starting point.

a) What should be the base motivation for the creation of public policy (in the Irish context)? In other words, in whose interest do you believe public policy should be pursued/created?

b) Is that what occurs at present?

c) If not, why not? And if so, why?

d) And finally, should such an approach as currently exists be continued/discontinued?

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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:45 pm 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
a) What should be the base motivation for the creation of public policy (in the Irish context)? In other words, in whose interest do you believe public policy should be pursued/created?

Various people. It's complicated. In the interests of expediency, can you give me multiple choices that I can rank and weight?

Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
b) Is that what occurs at present?

If you mean "is the country run in my favourite way?", the answer is no. (Citation: Louis CK)

Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
c) If not, why not?

Because I am not the despotic king of Ireland? What are you expecting, some deus ex machina that makes the world the way I want it?

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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:52 pm 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
A friend of mine is a chef in a somewhat trendy restaurant in Dublin.

He says all the kitchen porter work is done by Brazilian guys in their 20s enrolled in language schools.

When one leaves they find another to replace him. They tend to live in very cramped conditions.

He reckons the main target of their year in Ireland - to party a lot and improve their English - is fulfilled.



Anyone who has gone to the states on a J1 completely understands the logic behind sharing a house with 39 others.


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 Post subject: Re: 40 tenants in one house
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:02 pm 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
A friend of mine is a chef in a somewhat trendy restaurant in Dublin.

He says all the kitchen porter work is done by Brazilian guys in their 20s enrolled in language schools.

When one leaves they find another to replace him. They tend to live in very cramped conditions.

He reckons the main target of their year in Ireland - to party a lot and improve their English - is fulfilled.

I think I've previously related on the 'Pin how I quit a part-time job in a language school* due to facing classes of uninterested/asleep Mongolian students in that situation. I suppose it's easy money if you want to pretend to teach, but I didn't need the money. The school went bust recently come to think of it.

*circa 2006


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