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 Post subject: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homeless
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:20 pm 
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http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-an ... -1.2898095

I don't know why I continued to be surprised at decisions of the Irish courts but I do.

According to this judgement everyone except those of us who work for a living are legally entitled to demand the state houses us in the most expensive part of the country even if, as in this case, they have abondoned two council houses one in Tallaght and one in the U.K.


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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:47 pm 
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I don't agree that she is 'deliberately homeless'. She availed of opportunities available to try to improve her family's life, like most of us would. Did not work out.
Councils have been turning people away for decades on spurious grounds, and the only route of appeal is the courts, unfortunately.
Hopefully, this is one of a string of cases that will ensure that housing/homelessness situation is resolved and make the State start building housing!

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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:20 pm 
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She had a council house in Dublin which she voluntarily gave up to move to the Uk. She got a second council house in the U.K. Which again she deliberately gave up to come back to Ireland despite having no employment here or means to support her children. How isn't her homelessness anything but deliberate?

She is a grown woman has she no responsibility for her own choices?


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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:33 pm 
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This happens frequently when someone is renting with rent supplement. People move abroad to seek work/avail of opportunities and come back to Ireland if it does not work out. What difference does it make if it was a council house rather than rent supplement?
Do you think that once someone is allocated a council house that they must remain there regardless (excepting financial changes)?

The issue here is the Council applying seriously harsh guidelines when assessing for homeless services than ensure citizens suffer. The courts have found that the Council are negligent in failing to provide her with emergency accommodation. It is something that affects single people mostly. Imagine if she and her 4 children were sleeping on Grafton St every night and it turned out that the Council had turned them away?


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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:39 pm 
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Imagine if it turned out that, like Erica Fleming, the family had been offered an apartment in Clontarf but turned it down becuase the offer wasn't good enough? House them, sure, in Kerry or Mayo, or wherever there is far cheaper housing that would cost us less. If she's not working she has no need to be in Dublin. Or she could get a job and house herself.


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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:45 pm 
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croquette wrote:
Imagine if it turned out that, like Erica Fleming, the family had been offered an apartment in Clontarf but turned it down becuase the offer wasn't good enough? House them, sure, in Kerry or Mayo, or wherever there is far cheaper housing that would cost us less. If she's not working she has no need to be in Dublin. Or she could get a job and house herself.

If she has not been offered emergency accommodation, then she definitely has not been offered anything else. The article mentioned that her last connection is in the South Dublin CC area. If she went to any other Council, she'd be told to go to SDCC only - that's the way the system works.


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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:53 pm 
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temene wrote:
This happens frequently when someone is renting with rent supplement. People move abroad to seek work/avail of opportunities and come back to Ireland if it does not work out. What difference does it make if it was a council house rather than rent supplement?
Do you think that once someone is allocated a council house that they must remain there regardless (excepting financial changes)?

The issue here is the Council applying seriously harsh guidelines when assessing for homeless services than ensure citizens suffer. The courts have found that the Council are negligent in failing to provide her with emergency accommodation. It is something that affects single people mostly. Imagine if she and her 4 children were sleeping on Grafton St every night and it turned out that the Council had turned them away?


There is a big difference between a council house and rent supplement. A council tenant enjoys a legally underpinned tenancy for life. Their rent is again by law linked to their income So if their income falls their rent remains affordable. The tenancy can even be inherited by their children.

Rent supplement tenants enjoy so such security and the tenancy can be terminated at any time with the requisite notice or their rent can be doubled so it becomes unaffordable.

So a rent supplement tenant can very easily through no fault of their own become homeless and if that happens of course the state should step in and support them but if someone deliberately makes themselves homeless by deliberately giving up not one but two affordable and secure council housing tenancies the state has no obligation to house them and certainly not to provide them with yet another council house.


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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:04 pm 
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She did not surrender her council tenancy because she did not like it or similar, in which case you can argue that she 'made herself homeless'.
It is obvious that the Council are abusing their powers by refusing her emergency accommodation.


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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:41 pm 
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croquette wrote:
Imagine if it turned out that, like Erica Fleming, the family had been offered an apartment in Clontarf but turned it down becuase the offer wasn't good enough?
Do a bit of basic research instead of slandering her. She was not 'offered an apartment in Clontarf'. She was offered a Housing Assistance Payment (if she could find a landlord who would accept a HAP tenant which is extremely unlikely). If she took up a HAP tenancy she would have no security of tenure, and she would also lose her place on the housing list.

Adequate social housing improves the lives of all in our society. Your comment reminds me that slaves will always point out to the master if another slave's chains are too loose.


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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:42 pm 
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Good posts temene.


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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:14 pm 
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temene wrote:
Hopefully, this is one of a string of cases that will ensure that housing/homelessness situation is resolved and make the State start building housing!


This is a bizarre statement. Judges should not set government policy.


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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:33 pm 
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welcome to the hotel tallafornia :x

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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:12 pm 
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mocame wrote:
She had a council house in Dublin which she voluntarily gave up to move to the Uk. She got a second council house in the U.K. Which again she deliberately gave up to come back to Ireland despite having no employment here or means to support her children. How isn't her homelessness anything but deliberate?

She is a grown woman has she no responsibility for her own choices?


So she should remain jobless, in exile in the UK forever unless she can find a job before coming back? "Deliberately homeless" is a serious stretch.

She gave up a council house, essentially security of tenancy for life, to try to get a job elsewhere. She shouldn't be punished for that. Her kids certainly shouldn't be.


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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:33 pm 
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She didn't move to England for work - her son seems to have shown some promise as a footballer so instead of waiting for the English clubs to come after him here, they went over to them.
That didn't work out so she came back to Ireland demanding a house as soon as she landed. Again no mention of looking for a job and with a few kids to care for, I doubt thats on the immediate agenda


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 Post subject: Re: Councils legally obliged to house the deliberately homel
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:16 am 
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Coles2 wrote:
croquette wrote:
Imagine if it turned out that, like Erica Fleming, the family had been offered an apartment in Clontarf but turned it down becuase the offer wasn't good enough?
Do a bit of basic research instead of slandering her. She was not 'offered an apartment in Clontarf'. She was offered a Housing Assistance Payment (if she could find a landlord who would accept a HAP tenant which is extremely unlikely). If she took up a HAP tenancy she would have no security of tenure, and she would also lose her place on the housing list.

Adequate social housing improves the lives of all in our society. Your comment reminds me that slaves will always point out to the master if another slave's chains are too loose.


According to this article, (granted it's the Indo, the council had sourced an apartment for her in Clontarf, and she did turn it down because she did not consider the offer to be good enough. All what I wrote seems factual to me.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ho ... 81951.html

It is easy to agree that social housing should be available to all who need it, and I am happy to be paying my taxes to fund that. However, it is fully unacceptable to me that recipients of my earnings tell me that they want even better housing than I have, i.e., I do not live in my preferred area, I do not have my dream house, if I lose my job I'll lose my house, etc. This sense of entitlement in Ireland needs to stop. Social welfare is supposed to be a safety net, not a free ride for life, at the expense of taxpayers.


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