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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:22 am 
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muirgheasa wrote:
...
How do you explain 2014-2016? Either this housing crisis is deliberate or it's gross incompetence. Take your pick.


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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:40 am 
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Data from CSO.ie Dept of Environment Housing statistics.


Last edited by Coles2 on Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:43 am 
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Coles2 wrote:
Yes, I think it's fair to say that you would be wrong. Very wrong.

Image

Do you agree that you're wrong?

What has this got to do with Bruton's statement? Did he say that we should not be building any social housing?

Could we not flip your logic here and state that you are arguing that no private housing should be built? Which seems a bit...silly.


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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Barney Gumble wrote:
Could we not flip your logic here and state that you are arguing that no private housing should be built? Which seems a bit...silly.
No, and yes, that is silly. This debate sure throws up interesting points of view.


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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:10 pm 
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Coles2 wrote:
Barney Gumble wrote:
Could we not flip your logic here and state that you are arguing that no private housing should be built? Which seems a bit...silly.
No, and yes, that is silly. This debate sure throws up interesting points of view.

It does. My view is that we need both social and private housing built. I'm assuming that's what Bruton was on about. You contend that he was saying no social housing should be built, which seems a rather strange position for a minister in a government which is planning to build 47,000 social dwellings.

It's almost like we are each seeing what we want to see in his comments, but I think my view is closer to the mark.

(I've tried to find the context of the quoted comments, no joy yet)


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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:09 pm 
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Coles2 wrote:
muirgheasa wrote:
...
How do you explain 2014-2016? Either this housing crisis is deliberate or it's gross incompetence. Take your pick.


I think the housing crisis is deliberate, but I also think it's incorrect to refer to a FG crisis, as opposed to one for which both FF and Labour are equally culpable. They continued the issue, but they didn't start it, and they have at least signalled a commitment to doing something about it (time will tell if they do or not).

Don't try and put words in my mouth!


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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:39 pm 
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Alt facts/interpetations running rampant across the Pin......time for a meme incorporating 1984? Where What Goes Up when you need him? :)

Could the fact that so many TDs are landlords have anything to do with the whole shebang at all at all? Does the fact that so many (in many many instances, politically connected) persons own rental properties have any bearing on the matter? How does large scale inward migration feed into the overall picture? What impact would a large social housing building programme over the past number of years have had on said private rental market, populated as we know by many of those with Dail seats as well as their many acolytes and hangers on??

These are obviously imponderables, the unravelling of which would require intense scrutiny by great great minds ....

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― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:48 pm 
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A Council Chief has admitted policy failures said something.
Homelessness in Galway City is the worst in the country
“Pro-rata, homelessness is a bigger problem that in other cities.."


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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Coles2 wrote:
Er, what social housing?


Em, this type of thing

Quote:
Private Dwellings in Permanent Housing Units (Number) by Towns by
Size, Nature of Occupancy and Census Year
2011
State
Rented from a Local Authority 129,033
Rented from a Voluntary Body 14,942


Muchos selective fake news posted in this thread :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:47 pm 
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Coles2 wrote:
Image
Data from CSO.ie Dept of Environment Housing statistics.


ChickenParmentier wrote:
Mantissa wrote:
... but fundamentally building social housing is the only thing that will get us out of this mess.


High-blown statements are made about the need for the local authorities to start building social housing.

These same local authorities were awash with Part V payments over the last 15 years and did nothing with them except pay the staff increasingly higher salaries while delivering absolutely nothing.

It is manifest nonsense to suggest that these same local authorities should now be given resources to build residential property or that they have the ability to deliver a large-scale building programme followed by a programme of selecting suitable tenants and setting and collecting rents. They are characterised by slowness, laziness, incompetence, greed and stupidity. That is not an opinion. It is derived from an analysis of their collective behaviour.

Who else should do it? The Department of the Environment? The same Department that gave you the exafuck that is Irish Water.

ChickenParmentier wrote:
The only vested interested in this are the local authorities who have received billions in development levies, planning fees and Part V transfers or payments in lieu and done nothing development-related with the money.

Local authorities got €3.85 billion in development levies in the last 17 years. From 2002-2012 a further €398 million was received in planning fees.

From 2003-2014 they got a further €159 million in Part V payments. They also got 9,534 units under the scheme. If you assume a modest unit value of €150,000 that is the equivalent of €1.43 billion.

They also got €522 million in local property tax in 2014 alone.

Very little of this money was spent on development and even less on housing. It was squandered by local authorities on vanity projects and on over staffing and over payment of their staff.

Bear in mind that local authorities no longer provide waste collection and disposal, water and waste water services.

Local authorities spend a total of around €4.3 billion a year that the get from commercial rates, levies, prooerty ytax and charges as well transfers from general taxation. That is around €1,000 per person - adult and child - in the country. Do you get €1,000 worth of value from your local authority given that you pay separately for property tax, waste charges, water charges and incur other costs such as road tolls to pay for major road projects. Does a family of four get €4,000 in value each and every year from their local authority?

There is clearly a problem with the residential property market - both for purchase and rent - at least in urban areas. There are too few properties for purchase and rent. Attempts to limit purchase demand through LTI/LTV restrictions rather than addressing supply problems has direct consequences in creating latent unfulled demand, increasing demand for rental units and drive-up prices for those who are less affected by the LTI/LTV restrictions.

Why is attempting to address supply problems termed creating a new bubble? The media are not pushing any regulation revision agenda that I can see. They just report the usual supply-related horror stories.

These are all supply-related problems. Solve supply and the problems will diminish.

Local authorities have demonstrated their incompetence and inability to build residential property. Even when they built residential property it never amounted to more than a small fraction of total residential property built.

The current system is not working. So why keep repeating the same actions and expect a different outcome? If a set of actions does not produce the desired outcome, do something else.


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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:21 pm 
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Your post is factually incorrect CP.

The use of Local authority development levies is regulated by law. These can only be spent on land servicing such as sewage and road provision or for other environmental aminities such as parks. They cannot be spend on staff salaries. This is detailed in section 14 a of this part of the 2000 planning act:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000 ... ed/en/html

Ditto the use as of Part V cash could contributions Is regulated by the same act. They can only be spent on social housing provision or other capital spending. This is explained in this Department of Housing memo:
http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default ... 794,en.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:24 pm 
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mocame wrote:

Ditto the use as of Part V cash . They can only be spent on social housing provision or other capital spending.

So that's what they built their offices with.


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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:31 pm 
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mocame wrote:
Your post is factually incorrect CP.

The use of Local authority development levies is regulated by law. These can only be spent on land servicing such as sewage and road provision or for other environmental aminities such as parks. They cannot be spend on staff salaries. This is detailed in section 14 a of this part of the 2000 planning act:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000 ... ed/en/html

Ditto the use as of Part V cash could contributions Is regulated by the same act. They can only be spent on social housing provision or other capital spending. This is explained in this Department of Housing memo:
http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default ... 794,en.pdf


You naivety, if that is what it is, is moving and heart-breaking and, at the same time, risible.

The existence of a law is a fact. The successful implementation, operation, administration, compliance with and enforcement of that law is not, unless this is established through audit.

If that were the case then there would be lots of social housing and world-class infrastructure in Ireland.

However, in the real world …

What I quoted were actual facts and not pompous, high-minded aspirations or wishful thinking.

Code:
Start       End         Item                                                       Amount
2000        2016        Development levies                                  €3.85 billion
2002        2012        Planning fees                                        €398 million
2003        2014        Part V payments                                      €159 million
2003        2014        9,534 units at €150,000 each                        €1.43 billion
Total                                                                      €5.837 billion


This is only a small subset of the actual money spent by local authorities in these intervals. These numbers are not adjusted for inflation.

Where did all this money go? Where?

The Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Council Lexicon Library Head Office vanity project cost €36.6 million and several million a year thereafter to run. That is a fact. Where did the money come from? Was this the best possible use of that money? Is the infrastructure and social housing provision in the Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Council area so perfect that this was the last item on the construction agenda? Because that is where it should have been.

It is a fact that Sligo County Council wasted €100 million on vanity projects that contributed nothing to the county – see:

http://sligonewsfile.com/debt-debacle-m ... ing-stock/

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environm ... -1.1702151

It is also a fact that Hubert Kearns, the Sligo County Manager responsible for this got a massive pay off and a contract job in that other €1 billion fuckup Irish Water – see:

http://www.thejournal.ie/outgoing-sligo ... 1-Aug2013/

So, no, I did not get my facts wrong. I got them all too depressingly correct.

And if you want to read more about Owen Keegan’s squandering other vanity projects, have a look at this viewtopic.php?p=326724#p326724 from my previous incarnation.

Local authorities cannot be trusted to do anything right, except piss away money.


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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:48 pm 
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ChickenP wrote:
mocame wrote:
Your post is factually incorrect CP.

The use of Local authority development levies is regulated by law. These can only be spent on land servicing such as sewage and road provision or for other environmental aminities such as parks. They cannot be spend on staff salaries. This is detailed in section 14 a of this part of the 2000 planning act:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000 ... ed/en/html

Ditto the use as of Part V cash could contributions Is regulated by the same act. They can only be spent on social housing provision or other capital spending. This is explained in this Department of Housing memo:
http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default ... 794,en.pdf


You naivety, if that is what it is, is moving and heart-breaking and, at the same time, risible.
:| wow.

Quote:
The existence of a law is a fact. The successful implementation, operation, administration, compliance with and enforcement of that law is not, unless this is established through audit.

It actually is established through audit.


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 Post subject: Re: Apollo House 'taken over' by Activists
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:11 pm 
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Coles2 wrote:
Image
Data from CSO.ie Dept of Environment Housing statistics.


Interestingly, in the 70s nearly as many LA houses were sold to tenants as were built.

The opposite is happening now. Tenant purchase is rare and LAs quietly buy up existing houses to add to the stock.

LAs should still be building more than they currently do btw.


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