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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:11 pm 
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You're missing the point. No one is required to show ID at airport security. The question boils down to "is a full face veil considered a jacket" since jackets have to be removed.

A separate (but unasked) question is, do you have to remove a veil at the boarding gate, but I suspect that's one for the airlines rather than DAA.

And of course the situation at US security and boarding is completely different since it's handled by CBP and their contractors.

Basically it's a question manufactured to get a rabble-rousing response from people who don't understand what it actually was.

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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:20 pm 
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I'd say the Brits are watching this with interest. If we are unwilling to control our own border than they will think twice about having an open border between the North and ROI once they leave the EU.

I think what they're realising is that their immigration problems actually had nothing to do with the EU as such, it was all because of the common travel area with Ireland. UK didn't need to leave the EU, just needed to get Ireland out of EU. Tess May now breathing a sigh of relief she hadn't triggered article 50 yet, and discussing whether the best way to get Ireland out of the EU is to get Enda to trigger his own article 50...


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:23 pm 
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I assume Bubblecovery has gone back to the charming little corner of the internet where that tweet was brought to his / her attention, so that he / she can correct all of those who might be labouring under the misapprehension that it is policy in Ireland that Muslim women can pass through immigration without removing their veil.


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:55 pm 
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HiFi wrote:
Bogus marriages much worse than previously thought, according to the Gardai. (Of course they bloody were - almost everything to do with asylum and illegal immigration into this country is "much worse" than any official figures suggest. How did this obvious scam get off the ground in the first place?)

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-an ... -1.2949938
More than half of all marriages in the Republic between men from outside the EU and non-Irish EU women in recent years are believed by gardaí to have been shams. The rates of such marriages have fallen so much since the Garda-led Operation Vantage began 18 months ago that senior officers now believe the abuse of the system was much more widespread than previously suspected.


I would not have thought that Ireland was a marriage tourist destination, that it, that a non-Irish couple would view Ireland as a marriage destination. It was certainly common for Irish couples to travel abroad – the Algarve, Rome, Sorrento, etc. - to get married. But I find it hard to believe that Ireland has the same marriage destination cachet. I can understand it if the couple were both from Northern Ireland but not for other countries.

There are detailed statistics available for 2015 on the country of residence of the bride and groom. See the following tables in http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublica ... ships2015/

• Table 9 Marriages registered in 2015 classified by age and area of residence of groom before marriage

• Table 10 Marriages registered in 2015 classified by age and area of residence of bride before marriage

• Table 11 Marriages registered in 2015 classified by area of residence of groom before marriage, also showing whether bride has same area of residence

• Table 12 Marriages registered in 2015 classified by area of residence of bride before marriage, also showing whether groom has same area of residence

In 2015, of the 1,219 grooms whose country of residence is listed as not Ireland, Northern Ireland or Britain, 1,123 brides – 92.1% - were either from the same area as the groom or not from Ireland.

In 2015, of the 1,231 brides whose country of residence is listed as not Ireland, Northern Ireland or Britain, 1,104 grooms - 89.7% - were either from the same area as the bride or not from Ireland.

In 2015, of the 1,219 grooms whose country of residence is listed as Britain and not Northern Ireland, 1,145 brides – 91.9% - were either from Britain or a country other than Ireland.

In 2015, of the 1,197 brides whose country of residence is listed as Britain and not Northern Ireland, 1,143 grooms – 97.2% - were either from Britain or a country other than Ireland.

This refers to country of residence. So these people travelled to Ireland as tourists just to get married.

There are less details marriage statistics for the years 2002 to 2015 available from the CSO in their data series VSA67: Marriages Registered by Country of Residence, Bride and Groom, Form of Ceremony and Year (http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire ... Language=0).

This table summarises the number of marriages between brides and grooms whose country of residence is both British or another country for the years 2002 to 2015:

Code:
Year      Britain/Britain Estimated       Other/Other Estimated   Non-Irish/Non-Irish Total   %Age of Total Total Marriages
2002                           1,080                         607                       1,687           8.21%          20,556
2004                             994                         529                       1,522           7.26%          20,979
2005                             934                         432                       1,367           6.40%          21,355
2006                             898                         430                       1,328           6.01%          22,089
2007                             838                         399                       1,236           5.43%          22,756
2008                           1,030                         451                       1,482           6.68%          22,187
2009                             964                         486                       1,450           6.71%          21,627
2010                             867                         539                       1,405           6.82%          20,594
2011                             896                         553                       1,449           7.30%          19,855
2012                             969                         674                       1,643           7.93%          20,713
2013                             975                         838                       1,813           8.77%          20,680
2014                           1,095                       1,000                       2,095           9.50%          22,045
2015                           1,171                       1,109                       2,281          10.35%          22,025


So, in 2015 over 10% of marriages were “marriage-tourism”. How credible is that?

This shows some of this information graphically:

Image

The total marriages are shown in the left axis. Other marriage numbers are shown in the right axis.

The total number of marriages dropped from a high in 2007 to a low in 2011. The non-national to non-national marriages did not experience the same drop. The Non-Irish/Non-British to Non-Irish/Non-British has been showing a different trend and increasing since 2007. It has almost tripled since 2007.

2015 was a peak year for such marriages so any alleged crackdown cannot have taken place in the last 18 months. The problem has been apparent for some time.

Why are historical marriages not being questioned aggressively?

This country is sleep-walking into social and demographic problems.

When this happens in Ireland, the British are going to look for border and customs controls along Ireland/Northern Ireland border. I cannot see them allowing a special case with all its associated leakiness unless they have additional controls between Northern Ireland and Britain, which is unlikely.


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:42 pm 
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Good work! Not that I've taken in all the details but, as I understand it the so called Lithuanian Brides are resident in Ireland (as they're entitled to be - as EU citizens) while many of the Indian/Pakistani men also give Irish addresses.

So, perhaps the figures are skewed in the stats, as both parties in the "marriage" state they are resident in Ireland - no?

Anyway to me, the astonishing fact is not that the Gardai think half of these kinds of marriages are bogus - it's the fact that they actually think as many as half of them are legitimate!


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:36 am 
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HiFi wrote:
Anyway to me, the astonishing fact is not that the Gardai think half of these kinds of marriages are bogus - it's the fact that they actually think as many as half of them are legitimate!


50% would be an amazing number, I suspect the average Lithuanian woman has little or nothing in common with the average Indian/Pakistani, also why so many Lithuanians involved is there some crime gang running the whole thing

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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:55 am 
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HiFi wrote:
Good work! Not that I've taken in all the details but, as I understand it the so called Lithuanian Brides are resident in Ireland (as they're entitled to be - as EU citizens) while many of the Indian/Pakistani men also give Irish addresses.

So, perhaps the figures are skewed in the stats, as both parties in the "marriage" state they are resident in Ireland - no?

Anyway to me, the astonishing fact is not that the Gardai think half of these kinds of marriages are bogus - it's the fact that they actually think as many as half of them are legitimate!


I had a casual conversation with a HSE registrar (friend of a friend) as long ago as 2009 who told me he regularly officiated at ceremonies where the participants only knew each others' names.

When he took it to management they said that they didn't have the legal powers to deny them the right to marry.

The fact that public policy has taken 8 years to weed this scam out is a sign of failure, not success.


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:18 am 
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Quote:
As of September 2013, visa applications under Directive 2004/38/EC or “Free Movement Directive”, have been handled within the Department of Justice separately from applications considered under national law. The most important thing for anyone applying for a visa under the Free Movement Directive is their ability to prove that they are either a qualifying or permitted family member of an EU citizen who plans to use their free movement rights. The applicant must be able to prove that there is an EU citizen with whom they have rights under the Free Movement Directive; the existence of a family relationship to that EU citizen; and that they will be either accompanying or joining the EU citizen in Ireland. It is up to the applicant to provide adequate proof that the EU citizen is using their free movement rights.

A qualifying family member is either the spouse of an EU citizen, the partner of an EU citizen in a partnership recognized as equal to a marriage (i.e. same sex partners) direct descendants of an EU citizen who are under 21 years of age (i.e. sons, daughters, grandsons, granddaughters), direct descendants of an EU citizen who are over 21 years of age but are dependent on the EU citizen (please note that dependency must be established by a certifying document issued by a relevant authority in the applicant’s country of origin, and must be to such a degree that hinders independent living), or parents or grandparents of an EU citizen who are dependent on the EU citizen.

Permitted family members refer to any other family members who are dependent on the EU citizen in their country of origin, or the partner with whom the EU citizen has a proven and durable relationship.

there is more


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:14 pm 
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Illegal marriages or marriages of convenience is very lucarative racket and is a Lithuanian/Latvian and more recently Romanian specialty in Ireland. Business is business.

Simple solution is send in social workers looking for evidence of a relationship and as there is none you permanently bar the EU person from even thinking of marrying in Ireland....ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:20 pm 
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2Pack wrote:
Illegal marriages or marriages of convenience is very lucarative racket and is a Lithuanian/Latvian and more recently Romanian specialty in Ireland. Business is business.

Simple solution is send in social workers looking for evidence of a relationship and as there is none you permanently bar the EU person from even thinking of marrying in Ireland....ever.

It has been overlooked because the authorities assume they are just exiting the country afterward. If they were shown to be staying in Ireland, costing Ireland money and all the planets aligned then they might invest headcount in it or have invested headcount in it earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Evil_g wrote:
I assume Bubblecovery has gone back to the charming little corner of the internet where that tweet was brought to his / her attention, so that he / she can correct all of those who might be labouring under the misapprehension that it is policy in Ireland that Muslim women can pass through immigration without removing their veil.


No, I just ignore Autists like yourself who want to deconstruct the original meaning of the tweet, breaking down security into 'security' & 'immigration'. Like the person asking or any joe bloggs would make the distinction.
Like, no, :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Bubblecovery wrote:
Evil_g wrote:
I assume Bubblecovery has gone back to the charming little corner of the internet where that tweet was brought to his / her attention, so that he / she can correct all of those who might be labouring under the misapprehension that it is policy in Ireland that Muslim women can pass through immigration without removing their veil.


No, I just ignore Autists like yourself who want to deconstruct the original meaning of the tweet, breaking down security into 'security' & 'immigration'. Like the person asking or any joe bloggs would make the distinction.
Like, no, :lol: :lol:

There was no need to deconstruct anything. The claim you made was flat out wrong and not supported by the link you provided.

Your claim was "All you need is a burka and an Irish womans passport and you can get into Ireland. Dublin Airports twitter account confirms."

What the Dublin Airport Twitter post actually says is "there is no requirement to remove a veil at airport security."

In Irish airports the only security check is when you are departing the country and the only check on arrival is a passport check. The two are very different things. The first is where you have to remove your jacket and possibly your footwear, but apparently not a veil, and also unpack your screens and liquids into a tray etc., before going through a metal detector. This process is carried out by DAA employees and is meant to ensure passengers aren't carrying anything dangerous on to the plane. Checking ID is not part of the process. The passport check on arrival involves a document check and confirming the arriving passenger's identity. I seriously doubt that they would let someone in without seeing their face although it wouldn't surprise me that if someone was particularly insistent they might let them show their faces in one of the interview rooms they have off to the side rather than in public.

So if anyone is deconstructing the tweet it is you. First you take a question and response that both refer specifically to a veil and restate it as referring to a burka. A light head scarf and a full body covering are two very different things so if you really want to make claims about DAA's policy regarding burkas at security checks you should probably ask separately. Second, the response very specifically mentions "airport security", which is the only check at the airport controlled by DAA and which has nothing to do with whether anyone is allowed into the country or not. If you want make claims about the policy on either veils or burkas at passport control then you should probably ask the INIS. They don't seem to have their own Twitter account but they come under the Department of Justice so you could try asking there instead. https://twitter.com/deptjusticeirl?lang=en

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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:02 pm 
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BoyRacer wrote:
Quote:
As of September 2013, visa applications under Directive 2004/38/EC or “Free Movement Directive”, have been handled within the Department of Justice separately from applications considered under national law. The most important thing for anyone applying for a visa under the Free Movement Directive is their ability to prove that they are either a qualifying or permitted family member of an EU citizen who plans to use their free movement rights. The applicant must be able to prove that there is an EU citizen with whom they have rights under the Free Movement Directive; the existence of a family relationship to that EU citizen; and that they will be either accompanying or joining the EU citizen in Ireland. It is up to the applicant to provide adequate proof that the EU citizen is using their free movement rights.

A qualifying family member is either the spouse of an EU citizen, the partner of an EU citizen in a partnership recognized as equal to a marriage (i.e. same sex partners) direct descendants of an EU citizen who are under 21 years of age (i.e. sons, daughters, grandsons, granddaughters), direct descendants of an EU citizen who are over 21 years of age but are dependent on the EU citizen (please note that dependency must be established by a certifying document issued by a relevant authority in the applicant’s country of origin, and must be to such a degree that hinders independent living), or parents or grandparents of an EU citizen who are dependent on the EU citizen.

Permitted family members refer to any other family members who are dependent on the EU citizen in their country of origin, or the partner with whom the EU citizen has a proven and durable relationship.

there is more


This was posted without any commentary, so I don't know what point it was intended to illustrate, if any. But it's worth pointing out one nuance here that seems counterintuitive and most don't know about it until they come up against it. For all the references to EU citizens above you should actually read "citizen of any EEA country other than Ireland". Irish citizens cannot rely on EU immigration legislation in Ireland, only EU citizens who have moved here from other countries can. That's why you get couples made up of one UK national and one non-EEA national moving to Ireland for six months, to get the non-EEA spouse into the EU first (Ireland) under EU family rules and then, once EU residency is established (under the Surinder Singh rule), move to the UK. I know one English/Argentian couple who lived in Ireland this way in order to be able to move back to the UK and a Dutch/Russian couple who lived in Belgium first as a way to get into Netherlands. A country's own nationals are not considered to be living in a country under EU freedom of movement rules unless they moved there from another country. So for most EU citizens their own (harsher) domestic legislation applies when it comes to living in their home country and bringing in non-citizen family members.

So in the case of, for example, a Pakistani married to a Lithuanian resident in Ireland, he will have some hard choices. He can apply for citizenship after three years, which entails documenting the residence and relationship has persisted over three years. Realistically it is going to be closer to four years before citizenship is granted. Once it has been granted you basically have lost any chance to bring in any relatives except possibly kids from a previous relationship. Alternatively you could try to bring in some relatives first and then go for citizenship but the family situation is going to be examined much more closely in that case. Do you really want to put the chance of getting citizenship at a later date at risk by having the marriage exposed as a sham while trying to bring in your parents? Is the Lithuanian lady you 'married' really going to stay on side and involved for the duration of this process? When you take into account the lead up to the marriage, the three years minimum for citizenship and the processing time for the citizenship application you're probably getting close to five years commitment from the Lithuanian lady to this process. It would be interesting to understand how payment works in that situation. Presumably there must be enough up front to entice someone to get involved but enough held back to force them to see it through to its conclusion. How feasible does it become when the commitment becomes both a longer one and much more intrusive/risky if you try to also bring in relatives of the non-EEA spouse?

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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:50 pm 
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JohnnyTheFox wrote:



So in the case of, for example, a Pakistani married to a Lithuanian resident in Ireland, he will have some hard choices. He can apply for citizenship after three years, which entails documenting the residence and relationship has persisted over three years. Realistically it is going to be closer to four years before citizenship is granted. Once it has been granted you basically have lost any chance to bring in any relatives except possibly kids from a previous relationship. Alternatively you could try to bring in some relatives first and then go for citizenship but the family situation is going to be examined much more closely in that case. Do you really want to put the chance of getting citizenship at a later date at risk by having the marriage exposed as a sham while trying to bring in your parents? Is the Lithuanian lady you 'married' really going to stay on side and involved for the duration of this process? When you take into account the lead up to the marriage, the three years minimum for citizenship and the processing time for the citizenship application you're probably getting close to five years commitment from the Lithuanian lady to this process. It would be interesting to understand how payment works in that situation. Presumably there must be enough up front to entice someone to get involved but enough held back to force them to see it through to its conclusion. How feasible does it become when the commitment becomes both a longer one and much more intrusive/risky if you try to also bring in relatives of the non-EEA spouse?



I'm not sure Ireland would then make much sense, I did a quick search and found ads only for UK - they would require only 6 months stay. Perhaps this is the reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Dublin Airport, Illegal Immigration Racketeering Watch
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:31 am 
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September wrote:
JohnnyTheFox wrote:



So in the case of, for example, a Pakistani married to a Lithuanian resident in Ireland, he will have some hard choices. He can apply for citizenship after three years, which entails documenting the residence and relationship has persisted over three years. Realistically it is going to be closer to four years before citizenship is granted. Once it has been granted you basically have lost any chance to bring in any relatives except possibly kids from a previous relationship. Alternatively you could try to bring in some relatives first and then go for citizenship but the family situation is going to be examined much more closely in that case. Do you really want to put the chance of getting citizenship at a later date at risk by having the marriage exposed as a sham while trying to bring in your parents? Is the Lithuanian lady you 'married' really going to stay on side and involved for the duration of this process? When you take into account the lead up to the marriage, the three years minimum for citizenship and the processing time for the citizenship application you're probably getting close to five years commitment from the Lithuanian lady to this process. It would be interesting to understand how payment works in that situation. Presumably there must be enough up front to entice someone to get involved but enough held back to force them to see it through to its conclusion. How feasible does it become when the commitment becomes both a longer one and much more intrusive/risky if you try to also bring in relatives of the non-EEA spouse?



I'm not sure Ireland would then make much sense, I did a quick search and found ads only for UK - they would require only 6 months stay. Perhaps this is the reason.

I would guess one of two things is happening that makes Ireland attractive. First, that these arrivals from Pakistan and Bangladesh are already proficient in English and prefer to spend their time until they gain citizenship in Ireland rather than, say, in France, Germany, Netherlands etc. Second, that they only create a pretence of living here and actually hop in and out of the UK through the North and actually work in the UK all that time.

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