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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Keep in mind also:

Shatter/Fitzgerald converted about 100,000 foreign nationals into Irish citizens from 2011 up to 2015/2016. These will be counted as Irish as far as citizenship in the census despite most being dual nationals. Although they may be counted under the ethnicity or 'place of birth' category in the census.

Theres about 30-40K illegal immigrants in the system(as claimed by immigration quangos themselves).

On census night, many tourists are also counted.


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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:39 pm 
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dipole wrote:
JohnnyTheFox wrote:
dipole wrote:
It isn't just those that are working. My Russian friend can't bring her granny to Germany unless they prove the Granny won't be a burden on the state and has health insurance. with no controls in Ireland anyone can present themselves.
It isn't even a double-standard in Germany as the locals have to pay their own health insurance be it public or private.

If your Russian friend lived in Ireland she would have to demonstrate to the Irish authorities that Granny won't be a burden on the state too when applying for a visa to come here so I don't see what your point is?

Would she be expected to pay over 10k a year on health insurance although in good health in Ireland? Is that enough of a point for you?

Are you talking about a short term visit (90 days) or something longer? If a short term visit then, no, a travel policy that can be had for less than €100 per 30 days would be sufficient. If for longer than 90 days then getting an Irish visa under those circumstances is much more difficult. The same requirement applies as to Germany, to demonstrate that you won't be a burden on the state. Presuming we're talking about someone over 70 here (your example is a grandparent of a grown up friend so it seems likely) you would need to take out health insurance sufficient to ensure that you don't need to rely on the public health system under any circumstances. Would that cost €10,000 per annum? I don't know for sure, as I don't know anyone who has got that far, but the last time I looked the most comprehensive Irish plans were in the high four figure range so not far off.

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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:53 pm 
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JohnnyTheFox wrote:
Are you talking about a short term visit (90 days) or something longer? If a short term visit then, no, a travel policy that can be had for less than €100 per 30 days would be sufficient. If for longer than 90 days then getting an Irish visa under those circumstances is much more difficult. The same requirement applies as to Germany, to demonstrate that you won't be a burden on the state. Presuming we're talking about someone over 70 here (your example is a grandparent of a grown up friend so it seems likely) you would need to take out health insurance sufficient to ensure that you don't need to rely on the public health system under any circumstances. Would that cost €10,000 per annum? I don't know for sure, as I don't know anyone who has got that far, but the last time I looked the most comprehensive Irish plans were in the high four figure range so not far off.

so you are telling me that there are high-end gold plated health insurance packages available but not that they are a requirement to enter to Ireland on a permanent basis.


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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:19 pm 
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dipole wrote:
JohnnyTheFox wrote:
Are you talking about a short term visit (90 days) or something longer? If a short term visit then, no, a travel policy that can be had for less than €100 per 30 days would be sufficient. If for longer than 90 days then getting an Irish visa under those circumstances is much more difficult. The same requirement applies as to Germany, to demonstrate that you won't be a burden on the state. Presuming we're talking about someone over 70 here (your example is a grandparent of a grown up friend so it seems likely) you would need to take out health insurance sufficient to ensure that you don't need to rely on the public health system under any circumstances. Would that cost €10,000 per annum? I don't know for sure, as I don't know anyone who has got that far, but the last time I looked the most comprehensive Irish plans were in the high four figure range so not far off.

so you are telling me that there are high-end gold plated health insurance packages available but not that they are a requirement to enter to Ireland on a permanent basis.

No, it's more than that. I've sponsored Russian visitors to Ireland on dozens of occasions and each time I was required to demonstrate that they would not be a burden on the Irish state. All of those have been for short visits so travel insurance was sufficient. I haven't tried to bring anyone in for longer than 90 days but I know dual Russian/Irish nationals who have tried to bring in elderly parents from Russia and have found it impossible to convince the DoJ people that they can meet the burden requirement. While Germany may give an itemised list of requirements Ireland generally goes for a more fuzzy requirement to 'satisfy the INIS official' without specifying what it will take to 'satisfy the INIS official'. So am I speculating about health insurance being part of what it would take to satisfy the INIS official? Maybe, but I don't think it is unreasonable speculation.

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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:55 pm 
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dipole wrote:
JohnnyTheFox wrote:
Are you talking about a short term visit (90 days) or something longer? If a short term visit then, no, a travel policy that can be had for less than €100 per 30 days would be sufficient. If for longer than 90 days then getting an Irish visa under those circumstances is much more difficult. The same requirement applies as to Germany, to demonstrate that you won't be a burden on the state. Presuming we're talking about someone over 70 here (your example is a grandparent of a grown up friend so it seems likely) you would need to take out health insurance sufficient to ensure that you don't need to rely on the public health system under any circumstances. Would that cost €10,000 per annum? I don't know for sure, as I don't know anyone who has got that far, but the last time I looked the most comprehensive Irish plans were in the high four figure range so not far off.

so you are telling me that there are high-end gold plated health insurance packages available but not that they are a requirement to enter to Ireland on a permanent basis.


It turns out that we have started itemising what it takes:
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Family%2 ... cument.pdf
Quote:
The financial thresholds will rise significantly where the application is made in
respect of a dependent elderly parent. Any grant of immigration status in
such cases will be subject to strict conditions aimed at protecting the public
purse. These will include medical insurance and financial guarantees.

Quote:
The onus of proof as to dependency is entirely on the sponsor and the dependant and the default position for such migration, given the financial risk to the State is a refusal.


Read pages 50-53 of the above document for full details but basically the requirements are as follows:
1) Convince INIS that it is essential the elderly parent (doesn't seem to allow for grandparents) can only be cared for in Ireland (and not by, for example, you moving back to Russia or paying for them to be put in care in Russia).
2) Purchase health insurance (VHI old plan D so currently about €4k).
3) Sponsor should have an after tax income of €60k.
4) Sponsor should sign guarantee to reimburse the state for any costs it incurs in relation to the dependent parent.
(I have to sign a similar guarantee when sponsoring Russian nationals for short term visit so I make sure that they have rock solid travel insurance even for those trips and not some €19.99 online deal.)

And after all that you get a one year right to remain, which may or may not be renewed one year hence, and which doesn't allow you to build time for a right to any more permanent residency.

Independently wealthy Americans and Canadians are apparently having their residency rights terminated for not meeting the criteria so I doubt the INIS will go any easier on Russian residents.
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/irelan ... -new-rules

So, if your point was intended to be that, in contrast to Germany, Ireland was somehow a soft touch in allowing Russians (or other non-EEA) to bring in elderly relatives, then I have to disagree with you. The health insurance line item might be a bit less onerous in Ireland but, from what I know personally and from the policies referenced above, bringing in an elderly relative is something that is very difficult to actually achieve in reality.

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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:12 pm 
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Quote:
So, if your point was ...

I presented an example of how Ireland has undeniably lower barriers to residence. That was the point I made with which you appear to be in agreement.


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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:45 pm 
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dipole wrote:
Quote:
So, if your point was ...

I presented an example of how Ireland has undeniably lower barriers to residence. That was the point I made with which you appear to be in agreement.

I don't agree with that at all. You can't cherry pick one requirement in isolation and present that as representative of the overall system. Does Germany first require your friend to convince a bureaucrat to make a very subjective assessment overriding their specified default position of refusal? To prove that her Granny can only be cared for by her in Germany, that residential care in Russia is not an option, that there are no other relatives who can provide this care, and that she cannot move back to Russia to provide it? Does your friend have to demonstrate a history of after tax earnings in excess of €60k? (Which in Germany means a gross salary north of €100k, correct?) Does your friend have to sign a guarantee to reimburse the German state for any costs her Granny might incur? Can Granny be denied leave to remain one year after arriving in Germany, or one year after the previous renewal, if another bureaucrat is no longer satisfied with the conditions?

If you want to make the point that Ireland has lower barriers to entry than Germany then you need to compare all the main criteria. In fact, if you want to just cherry pick based on your example, then you would have to say that Ireland has a much higher barrier to residency. Germany gives your friend a path to bring in a grandparent whereas Ireland only provides for dependent parents to be considered. If your friend lived in Ireland then bringing in her Granny would be a non-starter.

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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:52 pm 
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You are talking in hypotheticals. I'm talking in facts. They can't meet the entry requirements so Granny stays in Russia and can only visit Germany on holidays. No appeals, No letters to TDs, No entry. That is immigration control in operation where as in the part of Dublin I lived in had/has over 50% foreigners on the housing lists.


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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:02 pm 
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dipole wrote:
You are talking in hypotheticals. I'm talking in facts. They can't meet the entry requirements so Granny stays in Russia and can only visit Germany on holidays.

What hypotheticals? You've given one case as an example where your friend can't bring her Granny in because she can't clear a financial hurdle. I've given you chapter and verse (i.e. facts, not hypotheses, and not an isolated anecdotal example) on why someone in a similar position here could never bring their Granny to Ireland; ergo barriers to residency are higher in Ireland than in Germany for cases like the one you cited.

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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:07 pm 
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it is a very steep hurdle applicable to all applicants, is it not?


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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:31 pm 
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dipole wrote:
it is a very steep hurdle applicable to all applicants, is it not?

€10k for health insurance in Germany? Certainly that's a steep hurdle. But it is less steep than an obligation to prove a negative to someone predisposed (and formally instructed) to disbelieve you and convince them there is no alternative to the dependent relative moving to Ireland. In the cases I'm familiar with the application has never got beyond this stage so they don't even get to the question of whether the Irish resident can support the parent here or not. It is also a less steep obligation than having a track record on an income of €60k after tax. If someone can clear that hurdle, of earning €100k before tax, then paying €10k from that €60k net for health insurance, in order get an elderly parent in, would sting but is totally achievable.

I don't know why we are still having this discussion. I understand there is a perception out there that immigrants can bring in relatives easily but, while that may have been the case at some point in the past, the current requirements outlined above show that this is definitely no longer the case. The requirements were tightened up in 2014 but even before that it was very hard to do. The examples I'm aware of relating to Russian parents date back to 2009-11 and the people were hitting a brick wall even then.

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Last edited by JohnnyTheFox on Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:36 pm 
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JohnnyTheFox wrote:
dipole wrote:
it is a very steep hurdle applicable to all applicants, is it not?

€10k for health insurance in Germany? Certainly that's a steep hurdle. But it is less steep than an obligation to prove a negative to someone predisposed (and formally instructed) to disbelieve you and convince them there is no alternative to the dependent relative moving to Ireland. In the cases I'm familiar with the application has never got beyond this stage so they don't even get to the question of whether the Irish resident can support the parent here or not. It is also a less steep obligation than having a track record on an income of €60k after tax. If someone can clear that hurdle, of earning €100k before tax, then paying €10k from that €60k net for health insurance in order get an elderly parent would sting but is totally achievable.

I don't know why we are still having this discussion. I understand there is a perception out there that immigrants can bring in relatives easily but, while that may have been the case at some point in the past, the current requirements outlined above show that this is definitely no longer the case. The requirements were tightened up in 2014 but even before that it was very hard to do. The examples I'm aware of relating to Russian parents date back to 2009-11 and the people were hitting a brick wall even then.

You can't prove to me that those documents are anything more than aspirational or a sop to those who believe Ireland doesn't have a working immigration control capability.


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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:47 pm 
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dipole wrote:
You can't prove to me that those documents are anything more than aspirational or a sop to those who believe Ireland doesn't have a working immigration control capability.

I have recounted my extensive personal experiences bringing people in for short term visits.
I have recounted the personal experiences of (very motivated) friends and acquaintances trying, and failing, to get parents in on a longterm basis.
I have found, linked to, and summarised the official INIS requirements, which confirm both my own personal experiences and those of my friends and acquaintances.

If that isn't sufficient, fine. Stick to your preconceptions, how ever ill-informed they may be.

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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:01 pm 
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short term visits count for nothing in a country which has no means of tracking the people, rounding them up and expelling them if they overstaying.
You have added nothing to the discussion which shows me to be ill-informed and frankly it is like listening to Brian Lenihan who would have had you believe there was no crisis of any description at any time ever related to any topic for which he was responsible
The fact of the matter is that Ireland has no immigration control to speak of. Previously on this forum I've shared accounts of illegal immigrant Brazilian language course students and Russians buying Polish passports then doctoring them, me myself driving off the Ferry in Dublin port unchallenged, 50% foreign social housing waiting lists, etc... and you'd like me to believe that there is a functioning immigration control system in place in Ireland.
So what does this all mean in practice?
If my Russian friend were resident in Ireland she'd bring her Granny in on a holiday visa and then Granny would disappear. In Germany she wouldn't dare for fear of the very real consequences.
Do you get the point? That's the point. That's what CP's opening post is the springboard for discussion. No policing. No controls. No measurable metrics.


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 Post subject: Re: So, Just How Many People Live In Ireland?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:08 pm 
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On bringing in relatives

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics ... -1.2346948
Quote:
However, the overall number of refugees could rise to approximately 20,000 over the coming years as family members of each person with refugee status are entitled to arrive in Ireland under family reunification rules.
The average number of family members per refugee has been in excess of four in past programmes.
Minister for Social Protection Joan Burton said when family reunification was factored in the total number of refugees and migrants coming to Ireland would be “somewhat higher” than the 4,000.


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