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 Post subject: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social welfare
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:39 am 
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http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-a ... -1.2952088

Que more calls for rent supplement increases cause the one last year solved everything

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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:04 am 
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I'm a strong advocate for building "up". Surely this would ease the crisis?

Is there a justified/genuine reason that this is not happening other than "to preserve the landscape", which is only really justified in very particular parts of the city?


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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:31 am 
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purple24 wrote:
Is there a justified/genuine reason that this is not happening other than "to preserve the landscape", which is only really justified in very particular parts of the city?

It's received wisdom in the circles where this stuff is decided. And it's cruel and unusual punishment to make people question received wisdom.


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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:37 am 
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Not trying to be glib, but who should be renting the cheapest 20% of properties? Kinda seems like if you're paying enough social welfare for people to rent outside that bracket that you're paying too much.

Who do we think should be renting the cheapest 20% of properties?

And yes, building up, obviously! That massive new development recently announced down around Ringsend/docklands area, with residential capped at 9 stories. I'd laugh if it wasn't so serious.


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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:07 pm 
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If they built 'up' in the city centre, it would draw workers in from the outskirts, which would free up spaces in those areas for social housing.

The vast majority of single people working in town would much prefer to be able to walk to work rather than endure a 2+ hour daily commute.

So, in essence, concentrate on housing the workers rather than the socials, because by taking care of the former you'll automatically take care of the latter.

The old glass bottle site in Ringsend could house 10,000 people with the right density.
It would also be prime location with a sea view and sunny orientation.
Stretch the luas out to there and you'd have absolutely no problem filling it.

I'd like to repeat my stance that no social housing should be located in the city centre.


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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:20 pm 
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mr_anderson wrote:
I'd like to repeat my stance that no social housing should be located in the city centre.


Couldn't agree more. Some of the locations of the central social housing developments would be worth unbelievable money if knocked down and started from scratch.

A friend told me recently that in London they have actually started to do so, knocking down central social housing developments and providing housing outside the city. Does anyone know if this is 100% accurate?


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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:31 pm 
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mr_anderson wrote:
I'd like to repeat my stance that no social housing should be located in the city centre.
If you are trying to maximise the economic use of land perhaps it would be better to focus on building on public parks? No? But it's ok to force the elderly or ill out of their communities?

All communities need social housing and it serves it's purpose best when it's prevented form becoming marginalised ghettos. We know that.


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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:43 pm 
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purple24 wrote:
..A friend told me recently that in London they have actually started to do so, knocking down central social housing developments and providing housing outside the city. Does anyone know if this is 100% accurate?

UK Govt have compelled Councils to sell social housing stock
“The sale of empty high-value council homes will enable receipts to be reinvested in building new homes that better meet local needs, while housing associations have committed to replacing every home sold through right to buy.” https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... nefit-bill


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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:54 pm 
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FWIW, LHA rates in the UK are set at the 30% percentile (although frozen in 2016).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Hou ... #LHA_Rates

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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:32 pm 
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This lucky person must fall into the remaining 20% then.
https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057695911


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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:40 pm 
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This is an anti-statistic: an alleged statistic that does more to distort the facts rather than to preserve and present information and insight.

The 20% is based on a survey of asking prices for new tenancies and not actual prices for a mix of current and new tenancies.

What is the 20% of: rent amounts or number of properties?

What areas did they survey and what types of property did the include? Is is just one bedroom apartments? Is Dublin City Centre Dublin 1 and 2? Why should someone on social welfare expect to be able to rent in the IFSC or Hanover Quay?

I would safely assert that 100% of 5-bedroom detached houses in Dublin 6 are outside what can be afforded by those receiving social welfare-based housing assistance payments.

How about Simon recommending more building of affordable properties?

How about Simon commenting on problems with supply and demand with amateur landlords leaving the rental sector because selling is more profitable and no new landlords replacing them?

Is the only solution to provide more rent subsidies?

What about those not receiving such rent subsidies who will be priced out of properties by those tenants with extra taxpayer-funded money and the associated secondary consequences?


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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:46 pm 
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All the homeless charities need to band together and simply build premises.
There's enough of them to pool resources and get it done.


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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:32 pm 
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Coles2 wrote:
mr_anderson wrote:
I'd like to repeat my stance that no social housing should be located in the city centre.
If you are trying to maximise the economic use of land perhaps it would be better to focus on building on public parks? No? But it's ok to force the elderly or ill out of their communities?

All communities need social housing and it serves it's purpose best when it's prevented form becoming marginalised ghettos. We know that.


It depends whether you think social housing should just be for people who can't/ won't work.

In my opinion social housing is not just for those who are out of the workforce.

At the very least social housing should also be provided when the private sector does not provide - that is the current issue. If the State is using bed and breakfasts and temporary accommodation then the private sector is not providing housing for these people. It is much more economic for the state to provide housing in this case. That's the easiest case to justify - it has a sound economic basis. We have been using this type of accommodation for a long time - we would have saved money by providing social housing.

Where housing is not affordable (either to rent or to buy) for the working poor the state also has an issue as we obviously have a shortage of housing. In this case social housing can act as a buffer for supply. The state also has an issue as it will not be able to attract key workers to work in areas of expensive housing without raising pay. The old council house scheme was simple - you built good quality houses and charged rent at a rate people could afford. You raised the rent if their economic circumstances changed and over the years you hoped that you would get back the initial capital cost from the rents received (I'd be interested in Dublin City Councils return on their initial capital outlay). There is an issue about this approach - if someone becomes very wealthy how do you move them out of their house and their community (kids schools etc)? This is why you try to spread social housing around the city. And you stick close to the city because most of the work is there and if you have a low income there's a good chance you can't afford to run a car and we all know about Dublin public transport. The justification of this case is partly a matter of political belief but perhaps people forget how social housing happened in the UK - after the war no business had sufficient capital to invest in the replacement of the housing that had been bombed - only the state had the means and it had the will as well as men had returned from the war with no jobs - social housing resolved this issue.

In the case of Ireland developers were restricted in access to capital after the crash so no building was done, we also had a surplus of construction labour and large landholdings in the hands of the state. There was a huge opportunity at this stage - missed partly because of a conflict of state interest (the state wanted the highest price for the land) and partly by a desire not to borrow. A few years later Europe began chucking money around but for some reason no one asked if we could have used it to build social housing - money pumped into the economy at this level would have had a multiplier effect - as we know house building can have an enormous economic stimulus - it is mainly spent locally, we would also have reduced unemployment. Instead the money fed yet another round of housing speculation. By having this pool of social housing we would have a buffer against wild fluctuations in the price of housing - instead we've gone back to boom and bust.


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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:55 pm 
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buddygunz wrote:
This lucky person must fall into the remaining 20% then.
https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057695911

...and they've been on the waiting list 8 years of which 5 years were in by their own estimation "a lovely cottage" while my friend who lives and works in that area pays 40% of disposable income on a room in accommodation sharing.
But some people are intent on making the social housing waiting lists top of the agenda while people who work and try to provide for themselves must make do with accommodation sharing.

I'm sick of people with vested interests dictating the agenda with the agenda being driven toward the interests of their constituency while others endure similar or worse hardship.

I read that boards.ie post on the day it was posted so this isn't a knee-jerk response to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Over 80% of rents too expensive for people on social wel
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:21 pm 
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mr_anderson wrote:
All the homeless charities need to band together and simply build premises.
There's enough of them to pool resources and get it done.

The phrase 'too many chiefs and not enough Indians' was never more apt.


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