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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:44 pm 
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Luan wrote:
LPT is a wealth tax - irish socialist have forgotten that the most vunerable in society do not own property and are not subject to this tax. LPT is also a highly progressive tax - the more valuable your asset, the greater the liability.

Yes some people have a small income relative to their wealth (aka "the elderly") but this should not exempt them.


Exactly. It also taxes the unearned rise in the value of a property, and mitigates, to an extent, property price rises generally. It should also be less subject to the vagaries of the economy, thus providing more consistent local govt (or exchequer) funding.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:05 pm 
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mortgageboy wrote:
Luan wrote:
LPT is a wealth tax - irish socialist have forgotten that the most vunerable in society do not own property and are not subject to this tax. LPT is also a highly progressive tax - the more valuable your asset, the greater the liability.

Yes some people have a small income relative to their wealth (aka "the elderly") but this should not exempt them.


Exactly. It also taxes the unearned rise in the value of a property, and mitigates, to an extent, property price rises generally. It should also be less subject to the vagaries of the economy, thus providing more consistent local govt (or exchequer) funding.

also means that cash in hand tradesmen have to pay some tax!


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:42 pm 
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werpen wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
Skippy 3 wrote:
Coles2 wrote:
No, you're wrong.

No you’re wrong.
Actually you're right in so much that Fine Gael was trying to wind back the progressive taxation system and transfer general taxation on to the 'consumer' of local services, but the Household Charge and LPT were intended to support local services. Whether the intention of restructuring the taxation system was to actually create 'better' local services or to wind them down by starving them of funds is a very valid debate.


Seriously, it was part of the bailout conditions signed up to by FF and implement further by FG
Quick fix on taxation at time designed to close the deficit and move away from boom bust Stamp duty

Surprised your buying government spin these days


The tax was imposed by the Troika. The rate initially suggested by them was of the order of 1%. After haggling Noonan got it down to 0.5% and then when it was implemented it was at 0.35% - currently the rate is even lower. The Troika were apparently furious at this further dilution - mainly because they were going to take the hit for the higher level of austerity imposed as a result of this move to protect the propertied class.

It also provided Noonan with a classic 'Hey .... look over there' moment when he turned down (with the UK) the option to impose a financial transaction tax. This was Noonans most destructive moment and the complicity of those (who kid themselves on being) on the Left who did nothing while they shouted loudly in defence of the propertied classes is equally disgraceful. This tax could still be imposed and most of Europe (well all of Europe when the UK is gone) would support us doing so - but no political party seems able to raise this one - it could have wiped out our debt by this stage.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:39 pm 
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I would be happy to see it double - use the addition to fund proper local services.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:27 pm 
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Luan wrote:
irish socialist have forgotten that the most vunerable in society do not own property and are not subject to this tax. LPT is also a highly progressive tax - the more valuable your asset, the greater the liability.

Yes some people have a small income relative to their wealth (aka "the elderly") but this should not exempt them.



It is not a progressive tax, it is a flat tax on wealth. It is the same percentage* of the value of the house at all levels of price!

Progressivity is when you pay not just more in absolute terms, but in percentage terms too, as your income or wealth increases.



*Technically 0.25% of the excess over €1 million of all properties worth more than €1 million, but this impacts a tiny proportion of properties.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:29 pm 
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Luan wrote:
I would be happy to see it double - use the addition to fund proper local services.


Personally I get cynical when I see the Dublin local authorities spending nearly €3 million a week on 'emergency' homeless services.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:02 pm 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
Luan wrote:
irish socialist have forgotten that the most vunerable in society do not own property and are not subject to this tax. LPT is also a highly progressive tax - the more valuable your asset, the greater the liability.

Yes some people have a small income relative to their wealth (aka "the elderly") but this should not exempt them.



It is not a progressive tax, it is a flat tax on wealth. It is the same percentage* of the value of the house at all levels of price!

Progressivity is when you pay not just more in absolute terms, but in percentage terms too, as your income or wealth increases.



*Technically 0.25% of the excess over €1 million of all properties worth more than €1 million, but this impacts a tiny proportion of properties.


This is true. It does only apply to the property owning class and at least its not a tax on productivity. Only in Ireland "socialists" against property taxes.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:10 am 
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Luan wrote:
I would be happy to see it double - use the addition to fund proper local services.


Services provided generally for the benefit if those who are not productive...

Parks for teenage stray dogs to loiter in
Libraries open durin day time hours only for those with spare time
Footpaths to out of town estates granted planning permission in places that should never have been zoned in the first pkace

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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:31 am 
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Sellers beware: stealth-tax bill on homes could cost thousands - -> https://www.independent.ie/business/per ... 70183.html

Quote:
Second home tax

The second home tax, also known as the Non-Principal Private Residence charge (NPPR), could catch many sellers out - particularly the so-called 'accidental landlords' of recent years. This €200 annual charge was first introduced in 2009 and then abolished in 2014 when it was replaced by the property tax.
Should you be selling a property which was originally your home - but which you moved out of in recent years, you must prove that the NPPR has been paid for that property.
<snip>
Property tax

The Local Property Tax (LPT) was introduced in 2013 - with a half-payment due that year. A full-year LPT payment was due in 2014 and subsequent years.

There was also a precursor to the LPT - the €100 household charge - in 2012. Should you be selling a home which you have owned since - or before - 2012, you must prove that all LPT due (including the household charge) on the property has been paid. To do this, get a print-out of your LPT record from the Revenue Commissioner's property tax website (lpt.revenue.ie/lpt-web). This record should also indicate whether or not you have paid the household charge. Alternatively, you can write to Revenue and request a letter confirming that there is no outstanding LPT due on the property.
<snip>
Water charges

Water charges were introduced in 2015 but they have since been suspended and refunds are expected to be posted to all customers who paid those charges by the end of this year. Despite this, you must still currently prove that no water charges are owed on your home if you are selling it. "Under current government legislation, a property seller needs to provide evidence that the property has no outstanding bills with Irish Water - or that the property is not connected to the Irish Water network," said a spokeswoman for Irish Water.
<snip>
Capital gains tax

Capital Gains Tax (CGT) is a long-standing tax which was in operation before the recession. However, it is another one which could catch out accidental landlords and those who inherited property.

there is more


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 Post subject: Changes to property tax could be on the way
PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Quote:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/01 ... x-changes/
Changes to the property tax could be on the way after Housing Minister Eoghan Murphy said he favours a new calculation that is not exclusively based on market value.

Meanwhile, the Independent Alliance said the charge is in "crying need" of reform.

New figures released by the Revenue Commissioners this week show that €477m was collected in property tax last year, with a 97% compliance rate.

One third of the amount was paid by those living in the capital.

The average amount paid in some areas of Dublin was four times higher than in rural areas.


The self-assessed charge, collected by the Revenue Commissioners, is linked to the property value.

The Government has committed to examining the tax this year.

The Transport Minister and Independent Alliance member Shane Ross described the current tax as "perverse and crude" and that waivers need to be given to older people on lower incomes who live in high-value homes.

The Green Party has welcomed a review of the charge.

Leader Eamon Ryan said the Programme for Government suggests replacing it with a site tax and that this would make more sense.

He said such a measure would encourage development and help ease the housing crisis.

Fianna Fáil described the current system as punitive and said it will co-operate with any examination of the issue.

The party’s finance spokesman Michael McGrath said the Government needs to move swiftly and that no more time should be lost on examining ways to reform the property tax.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:01 am 
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More likely this has to do with elections and trying to head off an issue

https://irishelectionliterature.com/?s=property


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:28 am 
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its not really sensible to have a tax that one small part of the country is paying an outsized percentage of


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:42 am 
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cyrusir wrote:
its not really sensible to have a tax that one small part of the country is paying an outsized percentage of

Isn't there close to 33% of properties/population in Co. Dublin?
Ireland pop = 4.75m, Co. Dublin pop = 1.34m

It's gas to hear the D4 chattering class whining about their tax bill and moaning that Micko in his Southfork-esque mansion in Castlebar pays little.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:00 am 
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temene wrote:
cyrusir wrote:
its not really sensible to have a tax that one small part of the country is paying an outsized percentage of

Isn't there close to 33% of properties/population in Co. Dublin?
Ireland pop = 4.75m, Co. Dublin pop = 1.34m

It's gas to hear the D4 chattering class whining about their tax bill and moaning that Micko in his Southfork-esque mansion in Castlebar pays little.


i was referring to south county dublin specifically, but in any event the point is not the total tax from a location, its the average amount paid, and its going to be a lot higher in Dublin and quite a lot higher in specific pockets


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 Post subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Josepha ! LPT on the rise
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:13 pm 
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cyrusir wrote:
temene wrote:
cyrusir wrote:
its not really sensible to have a tax that one small part of the country is paying an outsized percentage of

Isn't there close to 33% of properties/population in Co. Dublin?
Ireland pop = 4.75m, Co. Dublin pop = 1.34m

It's gas to hear the D4 chattering class whining about their tax bill and moaning that Micko in his Southfork-esque mansion in Castlebar pays little.


i was referring to south county dublin specifically, but in any event the point is not the total tax from a location, its the average amount paid, and its going to be a lot higher in Dublin and quite a lot higher in specific pockets

Probably not easy to get the data but I suspect there would be a reasonably high correlation between per capita income and property tax paid in any given area.

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