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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Joined: Oct 29, 2007
Posts: 11596
Location: Multiverse
GameBlame wrote:

But to counter your counter factual, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. These "developers" aren't developing their extant renewed planning. So it's a policy failure. And it happens to help developers hoard and keep sites in the deep freeze


The vast majority of developers don't have the money to hoard.
It's a very expensive decision.
And not one many can take voluntarily.
Most are trying to get the show on the road as soon as they buy the site.

The problem is that government policy has increased the cost of building in Ireland.
(Forget the price of land. Look at the difference in build costs between North & South Ireland)
This has hit against the ceiling buyers are able to afford, due to Central Bank restrictions.

Simply, the build cost has exceeded what buyers are able to pay.


Developers (and their funders) wont build when there is the slightest chance of stock remaining unsold.

Then there's also the delays with planning etc to contend with.

Developing is an absolute bloody headache for all involved.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:23 pm 
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Single Home Owner

Joined: Nov 2, 2007
Posts: 163
mr_anderson wrote:
GameBlame wrote:

But to counter your counter factual, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. These "developers" aren't developing their extant renewed planning. So it's a policy failure. And it happens to help developers hoard and keep sites in the deep freeze


The vast majority of developers don't have the money to hoard.
It's a very expensive decision.
And not one many can take voluntarily.
Most are trying to get the show on the road as soon as they buy the site.

The problem is that government policy has increased the cost of building in Ireland.
(Forget the price of land. Look at the difference in build costs between North & South Ireland)
This has hit against the ceiling buyers are able to afford, due to Central Bank restrictions.

Simply, the build cost has exceeded what buyers are able to pay.


Developers (and their funders) wont build when there is the slightest chance of stock remaining unsold.

Then there's also the delays with planning etc to contend with.

Developing is an absolute bloody headache for all involved.


Stop doing that

Stop putting sensible analysis of the reasons behind low supply of housing into the public domain

Get with the programme -

- it's a gigantic conspiracy to deliberately inflate house prices
- it's ideological neoliberalism run wild, Tories, Thatcher etc
- it's the old crushing the young
- its vulture funds getting sweetheart deals, REITs, global capital, etc


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:32 pm 
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Single Home Owner

Joined: Nov 2, 2007
Posts: 163
Aston wrote:
mr_anderson wrote:
GameBlame wrote:

But to counter your counter factual, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. These "developers" aren't developing their extant renewed planning. So it's a policy failure. And it happens to help developers hoard and keep sites in the deep freeze


The vast majority of developers don't have the money to hoard.
It's a very expensive decision.
And not one many can take voluntarily.
Most are trying to get the show on the road as soon as they buy the site.

The problem is that government policy has increased the cost of building in Ireland.
(Forget the price of land. Look at the difference in build costs between North & South Ireland)
This has hit against the ceiling buyers are able to afford, due to Central Bank restrictions.

Simply, the build cost has exceeded what buyers are able to pay.


Developers (and their funders) wont build when there is the slightest chance of stock remaining unsold.

Then there's also the delays with planning etc to contend with.

Developing is an absolute bloody headache for all involved.


Stop doing that

Stop putting sensible analysis of the reasons behind low supply of housing into the public domain

Get with the programme -

- it's a gigantic conspiracy to deliberately inflate house prices
- it's ideological neoliberalism run wild, Tories, Thatcher etc
- it's the old crushing the young
- its vulture funds getting sweetheart deals, REITs, global capital, etc


if you think i exaggerate then have a listen to this unbelievable podcast produced by the Irish Times no less

https://soundcloud.com/irishtimes-polit ... e-to-build

Hugh Linehan corrals a number of leftist academics into violent agreement with each other that state intervention will solve everything and has no possible downside or side-effects

Some moments of unintentional comedy when the overwhelming consensus of all the participants is matched only by their agreement that they don't actually know much about the topic


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:21 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Nov 4, 2011
Posts: 5608
Location: SthDub
I'm amazed at how much the Left/Liberals want the State to run/build/manage everything and pay out to all and everyone.
But at the mere mention of the possibility of a national ID card being introduced as has been the case the past few days, they're howling at the moon about big brother, data safety and State interference!


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Dec 2, 2013
Posts: 2396
mr_anderson wrote:
GameBlame wrote:

But to counter your counter factual, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. These "developers" aren't developing their extant renewed planning. So it's a policy failure. And it happens to help developers hoard and keep sites in the deep freeze


The vast majority of developers don't have the money to hoard.
It's a very expensive decision.
And not one many can take voluntarily.
Most are trying to get the show on the road as soon as they buy the site.

The problem is that government policy has increased the cost of building in Ireland.
(Forget the price of land. Look at the difference in build costs between North & South Ireland)
This has hit against the ceiling buyers are able to afford, due to Central Bank restrictions.

Simply, the build cost has exceeded what buyers are able to pay.


Developers (and their funders) wont build when there is the slightest chance of stock remaining unsold.

Then there's also the delays with planning etc to contend with.

Developing is an absolute bloody headache for all involved.


Look at Nama's own comments in July about land hoarding. They've sold billions of land banks to non insolvent funds. The facts don't support your assertions.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:35 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Dec 2, 2013
Posts: 2396
Aston wrote:
Aston wrote:
mr_anderson wrote:
GameBlame wrote:

But to counter your counter factual, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. These "developers" aren't developing their extant renewed planning. So it's a policy failure. And it happens to help developers hoard and keep sites in the deep freeze


The vast majority of developers don't have the money to hoard.
It's a very expensive decision.
And not one many can take voluntarily.
Most are trying to get the show on the road as soon as they buy the site.

The problem is that government policy has increased the cost of building in Ireland.
(Forget the price of land. Look at the difference in build costs between North & South Ireland)
This has hit against the ceiling buyers are able to afford, due to Central Bank restrictions.

Simply, the build cost has exceeded what buyers are able to pay.


Developers (and their funders) wont build when there is the slightest chance of stock remaining unsold.

Then there's also the delays with planning etc to contend with.

Developing is an absolute bloody headache for all involved.


Stop doing that

Stop putting sensible analysis of the reasons behind low supply of housing into the public domain

Get with the programme -

- it's a gigantic conspiracy to deliberately inflate house prices
- it's ideological neoliberalism run wild, Tories, Thatcher etc
- it's the old crushing the young
- its vulture funds getting sweetheart deals, REITs, global capital, etc


if you think i exaggerate then have a listen to this unbelievable podcast produced by the Irish Times no less

https://soundcloud.com/irishtimes-polit ... e-to-build

Hugh Linehan corrals a number of leftist academics into violent agreement with each other that state intervention will solve everything and has no possible downside or side-effects

Some moments of unintentional comedy when the overwhelming consensus of all the participants is matched only by their agreement that they don't actually know much about the topic


Wishy washy left wing journalists didn't bankrupt this country, the domestic wealthy did.
I can see how the clear black and white irrefutability of the OP in this thread would annoy you though. You're one of those "we all partied so shut up your whining" types


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:29 am 
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Nationalised

Joined: Oct 29, 2007
Posts: 11596
Location: Multiverse
GameBlame wrote:

Wishy washy left wing journalists didn't bankrupt this country, the domestic wealthy did.
I can see how the clear black and white irrefutability of the OP in this thread would annoy you though. You're one of those "we all partied so shut up your whining" types



The only way the domestic wealthy bankrupted this country was with the backing of the government.

You don't give any government the power to do good.
You just give them power.
And they do what they like with it.

The government bailed out the banks.
The government took on their debt and foisted it upon the taxpayer.
The government is blocking house building as they want prices to increase.

As for journalists, they report as they are told.
Ask any and they will tell you about stories that somehow fail to make publication.
Why decides what to publish or not ?
Certainly not [redacted] who just happens to be FG's #1 donor.

It's all just coincidence.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:31 am 
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Nationalised

Joined: Oct 29, 2007
Posts: 11596
Location: Multiverse
GameBlame wrote:

Look at Nama's own comments in July about land hoarding. They've sold billions of land banks to non insolvent funds. The facts don't support your assertions.


I'm not saying all.
Some definitely have the ability to hoard.
But it's not an across-the-board strategy.

And in any normally-functional market (i.e. one where the government isn't purposely increasing the cost of build, whilst simultaneously stagnating buyers affordability) , the hoarders would be blown out of the water by those who build and keep prices down.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:34 am 
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Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 11620
Location: Somewhere up in the hills
Every single site that I know if that qualifies for the 2012 CGT exemption is not being developed. The owners always say that they are holding it to avail of the capital appreciation.

Anyone care to explain why the further 5 year CGT exemption was introduced that can extend the CGT period to 2024?


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:49 am 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Apr 9, 2014
Posts: 1907
GameBlame wrote:
mr_anderson wrote:
GameBlame wrote:

But to counter your counter factual, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. These "developers" aren't developing their extant renewed planning. So it's a policy failure. And it happens to help developers hoard and keep sites in the deep freeze


The vast majority of developers don't have the money to hoard.
It's a very expensive decision.
And not one many can take voluntarily.
Most are trying to get the show on the road as soon as they buy the site.

The problem is that government policy has increased the cost of building in Ireland.
(Forget the price of land. Look at the difference in build costs between North & South Ireland)
This has hit against the ceiling buyers are able to afford, due to Central Bank restrictions.

Simply, the build cost has exceeded what buyers are able to pay.


Developers (and their funders) wont build when there is the slightest chance of stock remaining unsold.

Then there's also the delays with planning etc to contend with.

Developing is an absolute bloody headache for all involved.


Look at Nama's own comments in July about land hoarding. They've sold billions of land banks to non insolvent funds. The facts don't support your assertions.


What facts are you referring to? Nama is an organisation trying to deflect from the fact it effectively shut down every building site on sat on a land bank for ten years.

On the other hand vulture funds are trying to sell down their land exposure as quick as they can. Pretty much every lot for sale in any of the Allsops auction is being sold by a vulture fund. Go into any EA around the country and again you will find vulture funds selling land at knock down prices.

The unpalatable truth is that there is a shortage of developers and the government is hell bent on increasing construction costs - Did they not just increase builders wages 10% during the week.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:56 am 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Apr 9, 2014
Posts: 1907
Coles2 wrote:
Every single site that I know if that qualifies for the 2012 CGT exemption is not being developed. The owners always say that they are holding it to avail of the capital appreciation.

Anyone care to explain why the further 5 year CGT exemption was introduced that can extend the CGT period to 2024?

How many sites do you know? How many homes does that equal?

It is very easy to buy development land at €10k per site. Go into any EA in any country town.

There are no barriers to entry on the development front, just a lack of finance and high build costs that makes house building uneconomic in many parts of the country.

However it is much easier to blame mythical large scale land hoarders than accept the reality.


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Aug 8, 2008
Posts: 3224
Location: Cathair na dTreabh
Coles2 wrote:
Every single site that I know if that qualifies for the 2012 CGT exemption is not being developed. The owners always say that they are holding it to avail of the capital appreciation. Anyone care to explain why the further 5 year CGT exemption was introduced that can extend the CGT period to 2024?

And it applies to all “land or buildings”- residential and commercial property - anywhere in the European Economic Area.
It's an insane decision from the government to extend the cgt exemption... or is it?


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:03 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Mar 31, 2010
Posts: 2680
FreeFallin wrote:
I'm amazed at how much the Left/Liberals want the State to run/build/manage everything and pay out to all and everyone.
But at the mere mention of the possibility of a national ID card being introduced as has been the case the past few days, they're howling at the moon about big brother, data safety and State interference!


This is so true. The Fintans of this world seem to spend half the time demanding that the State run or mange everything - including housing, education, health, transport, banking etc., and the other half complaining about just how badly The State runs everything.

With not a hint of irony...


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:57 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Dec 2, 2013
Posts: 2396
Luan wrote:
What facts are you referring to? Nama is an organisation trying to deflect from the fact it effectively shut down every building site on sat on a land bank for ten years.


I don't think they shut down anyone who was solvent. Did you want them to lend to the insolvent ? Nama are giant spoofers but they have a list of development sites they've enforced sales on and they know if work has begun on them.

Quote:
On the other hand vulture funds are trying to sell down their land exposure as quick as they can. Pretty much every lot for sale in any of the Allsops auction is being sold by a vulture fund. Go into any EA around the country and again you will find vulture funds selling land at knock down prices.



Loan-owner vulture funds bought loans not real property. I assume They cannot benefit from the CGT exemption. But their receivership and consensual sales all have boom time base costs so CGT is a non issue. Allsop sales are not usually development land in areas where there are housing shortages. There may be Loan owning funds who are hoarding but the CGT exemption is not a contributory cause in their case

Quote:
The unpalatable truth is that there is a shortage of developers and the government is hell bent on increasing construction costs - Did they not just increase builders wages 10% during the week.


This is a non sequitur. For example Increasing construction costs during the boom did not cause a shortage of developers. (And in case you hadn't noticed the cost of living and renting is going up )


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 Post subject: Re: 'Help to Hoard' - How Government made the Housing Crisis
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:33 am 
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Back Home with Mammy

Joined: Feb 15, 2009
Posts: 64
Sorry, I'm not buying this "poor developers" nonsense.

It's down to profit and greed.

2 anecdotes:

1: My brother got a very small bit of work done recently, 3 weeks work. He provided most of the materials, the builder worked on his own and only used his own cement. When the brother was negotiating the price before the job started, he asked the builder if he could knock a few euro of his quote. The builder took a few euro off but spent the next 3 weeks complaining that he'd have no "profit" from the job. When he was finished, my brother figured that the builder was charging about €45 per hour. But the poor man had no profit.
2: My cousin and her husband are trying to build a house. When they applied for planning permission, they got quotes from a number of builders, and they all were within €10-15K of each other. It was just a matter of picking the most suitable builder once planning was granted. However, planning took 9 months longer than expected. When they went back to the builders to see if they were available, they had all increased their quotes by €50K. Each and every one of them increased their quote by exactly €50K, (nearly 30% increase). No explanation for the increase. Simply because they were worth it, I presume. It was most certainly not because the government increased labour costs 10% last week.

That's just greed.

And the construction industry in Ireland is riddled with corruption and very questionable/illegal practices:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ne ... 55076.html

Apologies for the Indo link, but there's plenty of coverage of the bogus self-employment scam which is rampant in construction:
http://www.thejournal.ie/courier-self-e ... 5-Jul2017/

And this was going on during the bubble 10 years ago as well.
And it means a 30% saving for the employer.

So no, not buying the poor developer nonsense.
They won't work to make a living, it's to make a profit.


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