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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:29 am 
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Homeless

Joined: Sep 9, 2017
Posts: 24
Right up to the point where we get told yet again, that we are very expensive relative to Germany/US/Poland/India/Bangladesh. Because we need high wages to pay for high rents/big mortgages. The majority are being played like a fiddle for the second time in ten years, oblivious to their fate.


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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:12 am 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 4752
temene wrote:
Ronan Lyons made this exact point this morning.

Homeowners don't want more housing as it will reduce their property value. That's why we have the politicians we vote for.
It's the homeowners that are the cartel, the vested interest influencing Govt decisions

I've heard that argument many times but it just doesn't feel right to me. It's the sort of argument made by people who think about prices a lot.

I don't know anyone who has ever mentioned property prices as a motivating factor in their voting decision, and it's not a super-sensitive issue like immigration where non-taxi drivers would be inclined to keep their opinions to themselves.

Neither do I recall any political party ever declaring high property prices as a policy objective (have they?). Consequently, whilst "wealth effects" from rising property prices are fairly well understood, people see them as an accidental windfall rather than a consequence of deliberate government action, so there's no political gain.

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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:23 am 
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Nationalised

Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Posts: 8328
Location: London, innit
Eschatologist wrote:
I don't know anyone who has ever mentioned property prices as a motivating factor in their voting decision, and it's not a super-sensitive issue like immigration where non-taxi drivers would be inclined to keep their opinions to themselves.

Neither do I recall any political party ever declaring high property prices as a policy objective (have they?). Consequently, whilst "wealth effects" from rising property prices are fairly well understood, people see them as an accidental windfall rather than a consequence of deliberate government action, so there's no political gain.



did you see the political/online/meejia backlash when the DoF mooted ending the CGT exemption for PPRs?

Do you see any left-wing party advocating it?

Where's the resident Sinn Fein spokesman when it comes to ending it? Look over there - we need a wealth tax on millionaires!


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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:14 am 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Aug 8, 2008
Posts: 3073
Location: Cathair na dTreabh
Eschatologist wrote:
I've heard that argument many times but it just doesn't feel right to me. It's the sort of argument made by people who think about prices a lot.
I don't know anyone who has ever mentioned property prices as a motivating factor in their voting decision, and it's not a super-sensitive issue like immigration where non-taxi drivers would be inclined to keep their opinions to themselves.
Neither do I recall any political party ever declaring high property prices as a policy objective (have they?). Consequently, whilst "wealth effects" from rising property prices are fairly well understood, people see them as an accidental windfall rather than a consequence of deliberate government action, so there's no political gain.

Voters know that falling house prices/less money impact them, that's why they vote for politicians who keep the status quo. That's why people object to social housing, developments etc. as it 'devalues' their home value. Politicians know this which is why they object on behalf of voters.
Would you want to invest in your home, knowing its price may ↓, value of your investment ↓ ?
Further, former Min for Finance did state he wants houses prices to rise in 2014


Last edited by temene on Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:19 am 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Mar 14, 2013
Posts: 1648
temene wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
I've heard that argument many times but it just doesn't feel right to me. It's the sort of argument made by people who think about prices a lot.
I don't know anyone who has ever mentioned property prices as a motivating factor in their voting decision, and it's not a super-sensitive issue like immigration where non-taxi drivers would be inclined to keep their opinions to themselves.
Neither do I recall any political party ever declaring high property prices as a policy objective (have they?). Consequently, whilst "wealth effects" from rising property prices are fairly well understood, people see them as an accidental windfall rather than a consequence of deliberate government action, so there's no political gain.

Voters know that falling house prices/less money impact them, that's why they vote for politicians who keep the status quo. That's why people object to social housing, developments etc. as it 'devalues' their home value. Politicians know this which is why they object on behalf of voters.
Further, former Min for Finance did state he wants houses prices to rise in 2014

very well put. The objection to Part V planning or any social housing is palpable

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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:25 am 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 4752
temene wrote:
Eschatologist wrote:
I've heard that argument many times but it just doesn't feel right to me. It's the sort of argument made by people who think about prices a lot.
I don't know anyone who has ever mentioned property prices as a motivating factor in their voting decision, and it's not a super-sensitive issue like immigration where non-taxi drivers would be inclined to keep their opinions to themselves.
Neither do I recall any political party ever declaring high property prices as a policy objective (have they?). Consequently, whilst "wealth effects" from rising property prices are fairly well understood, people see them as an accidental windfall rather than a consequence of deliberate government action, so there's no political gain.

Voters know that falling house prices/less money impact them, that's why they vote for politicians who keep the status quo. That's why people object to social housing, developments etc. as it 'devalues' their home value. Politicians know this which is why they object on behalf of voters.
Would you want to invest in your home, knowing its price may ↓, value of your investment ↓ ?
Further, former Min for Finance did state he wants houses prices to rise in 2014

People don't object to social housing, developments etc. because it 'devalues' their home. That's a rationalisation/excuse. The real reason is that they are scared of poor people.

I believe Noonan's desire to raise house prices was not based in political shrewdness but basic stupidity and incompetence. I think he genuinely believed that demand would raise supply.

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"It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when what is has worked out in your favour"
Tyrion Lannister


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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:32 pm 
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Nationalised

Joined: Oct 29, 2007
Posts: 11534
Location: Multiverse
Eschatologist wrote:
People don't object to social housing, developments etc. because it 'devalues' their home. That's a rationalisation/excuse. The real reason is that they are scared of poor people.



They're not afraid of 'poor people'.
They're afraid of drug addicts etc. moving in as their neighbours.

Homelessness is a symptom, not a problem.
When you give a drug addict a roof over their head, the addiction doesn't go away.
The underlying problem stays with them.
And when they're your neighbour, it becomes your problem too.


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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:52 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Aug 8, 2008
Posts: 3073
Location: Cathair na dTreabh
Homeless ≠ addiction. Singles in particular can be simply left on the street as all accommodation is full

Accommodation prices are extortionate. Anyone who is poor is forced out of the rental market, no housing available ergo rise in homelessness.
People, aka public representatives, aka Leo Varadkar, objects to housing near houses as it "..will have a negative impact on the market value of homes", therefore how do we build housing then?

Image


Last edited by temene on Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Joined: Dec 2, 2013
Posts: 2311
I think addiction has more chance of going away if you have a roof over your head, are in the one place and can be accessed there by services.

Look at Dipole's experience of living among social housing. It made his life hell. Why would you want that


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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Dec 2, 2013
Posts: 2311
The state should contract Sisk etc to build thousands of homes and rent them to the highest bidder. The whole idea of a "housing list" and "social housing" is old fashioned thinking. There's no reason why units within walking distance of the city centre are rented below market rates to people who came from the housing list. It's a "list" not a "queue", it gets gamed


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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Property Magnate

Joined: Jan 4, 2012
Posts: 565
GameBlame wrote:
I think addiction has more chance of going away if you have a roof over your head, are in the one place and can be accessed there by services.

Look at Dipole's experience of living among social housing. It made his life hell. Why would you want that


It would be interesting to know if there are any statistics on this. The counter argument would be that addiction doesn't go away, it is overcome by the addict.
In this case giving an addict a secure home in order to try to make their addiction go away would be massively counterproductive. Making succumbing to addiction a route out of homelessness incentivizes addiction and provides addicts with more resources with which to pursue their addiction. Alternatively, supports that are provided should rather incentivize and support the efforts of the addict to overcome their addiction.


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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:00 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Sep 13, 2012
Posts: 4752
Eh, I think heroin does quite a good job of incentivizing addiction already.

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"It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when what is has worked out in your favour"
Tyrion Lannister


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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:46 pm 
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Neo Landlord

Joined: Jan 31, 2007
Posts: 279
Location: Middle Earth
Abstract social arguments aside, I think it's clear part 5 is an abject failure. Developers will do everything they can to avoid building social houses in a development because they see it, quite rightly, as devaluing the rest of the project. If we don't want to go back to large council housing estates what do we do? Smaller council housing estates?


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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:49 pm 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Aug 8, 2008
Posts: 3073
Location: Cathair na dTreabh
owenm wrote:
Abstract social arguments aside, I think it's clear part 5 is an abject failure. Developers will do everything they can to avoid building social houses in a development because they see it, quite rightly, as devaluing the rest of the project. If we don't want to go back to large council housing estates what do we do? Smaller council housing estates?

Do nothing. Let citizens perish on the street.
De facto government policy


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 Post subject: Re: We WANT homelessness
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Mar 31, 2010
Posts: 2654
Meanwhile a serious outbreak of hysteria among the homeless/poverty industry....the "soup/sambos 'n' sleeping bag" brigade don't like hearing the obvious truth, it seems

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/n ... 22990.html
Father Peter McVerry has said that he is "absolutely furious" with a top Dublin City Council official who claimed that voluntary outreach services are not helping homeless people in the long-term. Eileen Gleeson, Director of the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive, said that while organisations who provide things like food, hot drinks and sleeping bags to the homeless are "well-intentioned", it's not good in the long term.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland ... -1.3292063
Volunteer groups who are only handing out food and clothing on the streets to long-term homeless people are not helping them, a senior local authority official has said.
Eileen Gleeson, director of the Dublin Region Homeless Executive, said long-term homelessness resulting from years of “bad behaviour” cannot be solved by the efforts of “ad hoc” unauthorised groups. “Let’s be under no illusion here, when somebody becomes homeless it doesn’t happen overnight, it takes years of bad behaviour probably, or behaviour that isn’t the behaviour of you and me,” she told Dublin City Council’s policing committee.


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