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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:51 pm 
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Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
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What real world? The world of corporate cock-sucking? The world of "you don't have to think, we have a procedure here to do that for you"? The world of let's make stuff that is no good for people (the lower socio-economic classes in the main), but makes absurd amounts of money for those higher up the economic and social hierarchy?

The real world that the rest of us have to live in and contend with everyday. You don’t have to be a corporate shill in order for that to happen. And how do you know that it is the lower socio-economic classes that buy up all this cheap tat?

Yes. The world that I alluded to above. At least in part.

That world is given reality by our current political and economic organisation.

I am interested in questioning that organisation. Does it have to be so? If it need not be so, then 'The real world that the rest of us have to live in and contend with everyday' as you put it, CHANGES to something else.

And not just 'does it have to be so'?. More, 'would it be better for our political and economic health and productivity if it were so'. Because it seems to me that it might add up to far more in real economic terms.

I might add that every other severe recession has been turned around by innovation in organisation*. I think in the face of the severity of this present recession we need a significantly paradigm shifting innovation in organisation - one with the kind of degree that is in the kind of ideas I am putting forward, perhaps? Or not.


* the consolidation of the railroads, petroleum and steel industries in the late nineteenth century (depression of 1873-1898); rise into prominence of the new 'management science' in the 40's and 50's (depression of the 1930's); development of urban 'mega-region' economic areas (both depressions), and so on.


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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:53 pm 
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Well, there's plenty of evidence that people like to work, that they like to have a job and they like to 'earn'. What form that earning takes is another question, but I think the idea that more leisure time is the answer is debatable.

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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:58 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
Well, there's plenty of evidence that people like to work, that they like to have a job and they like to 'earn'. What form that earning takes is another question, but I think the idea that more leisure time is the answer is debatable.

More or less leisure time is neither here nor there. More so a type of organisation that fosters a more intelligent purpose in what is produced, who it is produced for, and how it is produced with consideration for the dignity and maximum utilisation of human beings in human terms in their production. As per the OP.


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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:23 pm 
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roc wrote:
yoganmahew wrote:
Well, there's plenty of evidence that people like to work, that they like to have a job and they like to 'earn'. What form that earning takes is another question, but I think the idea that more leisure time is the answer is debatable.

More or less leisure time is neither here nor there. More so a type of organisation that fosters a more intelligent purpose in what is produced, who it is produced for, and how it is produced with consideration for the dignity and maximum utilisation of human beings in human terms in their production. As per the OP.


Nail. Head.



yoganmahew wrote:
There are no lower income taxes in Ireland.


Damn you Yogi, daaaamn yooooouuuuu!

[sigh] Social collapse it is then.
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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:30 pm 
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roc wrote:
More or less leisure time is neither here nor there. More so a type of organisation that fosters a more intelligent purpose in what is produced, who it is produced for, and how it is produced with consideration for the dignity and maximum utilisation of human beings in human terms in their production. As per the OP.
I wish you were our "Director of Human Resources". 8DD Seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:56 pm 
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We have strayed very far from our evolutionary roots. We are still hunter-gatherers physically and mentally. Our minds that allowed us to top our food pyramid with a very limited body has gone onto create a world for ourselves that is unhealthy for us. The food we eat is not what our bodies spent Millennia evolving to eat and is making us sick. The work we do sitting in chairs, doing monotonous tasks with little scope for self expression or human interaction is making us sick.

In hunter-gatherer societies the average person spends 20 hours a week "working" although in most hunter-gatherer societies they don't know what "working" is. When housework is added in hunter-gatherers work roughly 40 hours a week. When you add in house work to an industrial persons work time I'd say we spend probably 50-60 hours a week working. We are trying to force a hunter-gatherer mind and body into an industrial world rather than trying to shape our industrial world to help the hunter-gatherer.

From wikipedia
Quote:
"Work time" and "leisure time"

Sahlins' argument partly relies on studies undertaken by McCarthy and McArthur in Arnhem Land, and by Richard Lee among the !Kung. These studies show that hunter-gatherers need only work about twenty hours a week in order to survive and may devote the rest of their time to leisure.[3] Lee did not include food preparation time in his study, arguing that "work" should be defined as the time spent gathering enough food for sustenance.[4] When total time spent on food acquisition, processing, and cooking was added together, the estimate per week was 44.5 hours for men and 40.1 hours for women, but Lee added that this is still less than the total hours spent on work and housework in many modern Western households.[4

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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:49 pm 
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The only nation-state able to successfully change the status quo is the US, IMO. No other country would survive the backlash of the "establishment" when trying to implement the political and economical, structural changes necessary for the advancement of a better economy and therefore, society. Sadly, the level of ignorance, and lack of education of the masses in the US (see creationism) renders any kind of meaningful change to the system impossible.

It's sad to see a whole civilization collapsing, while the knowledge to create something much, much better goes unused, ignored, and only shared in a few places (like the property pin).

A well functioning European Union would be the only other entity able to implement such changes in a successful manner, but because of the incompetence and greed of the upper echelons of European Society, and the comfortable denialism embraced by the middle classes, I see this possibility nearly as remote as a Second American Revolution.


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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:43 pm 
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tulip wrote:
We have strayed very far from our evolutionary roots. We are still hunter-gatherers physically and mentally. Our minds that allowed us to top our food pyramid with a very limited body has gone onto create a world for ourselves that is unhealthy for us. The food we eat is not what our bodies spent Millennia evolving to eat and is making us sick. The work we do sitting in chairs, doing monotonous tasks with little scope for self expression or human interaction is making us sick.

In hunter-gatherer societies the average person spends 20 hours a week "working" although in most hunter-gatherer societies they don't know what "working" is. When housework is added in hunter-gatherers work roughly 40 hours a week. When you add in house work to an industrial persons work time I'd say we spend probably 50-60 hours a week working. We are trying to force a hunter-gatherer mind and body into an industrial world rather than trying to shape our industrial world to help the hunter-gatherer.

From wikipedia
Quote:
"Work time" and "leisure time"

Sahlins' argument partly relies on studies undertaken by McCarthy and McArthur in Arnhem Land, and by Richard Lee among the !Kung. These studies show that hunter-gatherers need only work about twenty hours a week in order to survive and may devote the rest of their time to leisure.[3] Lee did not include food preparation time in his study, arguing that "work" should be defined as the time spent gathering enough food for sustenance.[4] When total time spent on food acquisition, processing, and cooking was added together, the estimate per week was 44.5 hours for men and 40.1 hours for women, but Lee added that this is still less than the total hours spent on work and housework in many modern Western households.[4


This is exactly correct! The advent of agriculture resulted in the slow evolutionary atrophy of the human race to the pitable state we are in today.
I look around and nobody even knows how to use their bodies anymore the most important tool we have. Heads should be back over shoulders not hanging down the front like dead weight stressing and collapsing the ripcage, collapsing the diaphragm and forcing the chest muscles to breath due to the total collapse of the posterior muscles from hunched living every breath taken an assault on the heart and chest muscles. The agony and stress people live with on a daily basis is shocking due to the demands of the modern workpace and yet we fool ourselves with mindless platitudes. This is one my favourite photos as it shows a penniless Irish man from the famine years with almost perfect anatomy, compare him to the pitable specimens we see all around today.


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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:52 pm 
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worst problem of modern world is guys whom never did anything useful for the society, but they can own good part of it just because they were born in rich families.

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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:11 pm 
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If we agree as a human culture to include freetime and playtime on the two sides of the activity balance sheets we'll solve all our problems overnight. You will note work must be dissolved to make way for balance.

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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:14 pm 
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mightyz wrote:
worst problem of modern world is guys whom never did anything useful for the society, but they can own good part of it just because they were born in rich families.


There are people from all classes in Irish society who, "never did anything useful for the society." The long term Welfare Wasters are enjoying a massive transfer of wealth from the working taxpayer, for doing absolutely nothing in return.


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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:34 pm 
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This is an interesting proposal, roc. I wonder not so much how it would function, but how western human-doings would function.

I'm wondering where people would need more or less therapy to find themselves. And where ambition fits in.

I agree with you - and Tulip, but the shock to the psychological system of many would be terminal.

I can't help thinking of Willie Loman's line about a man not being a piece of fruit.

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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Posts: 202
tulip wrote:
From wikipedia
Quote:
"Work time" and "leisure time"

Sahlins' argument partly relies on studies undertaken by McCarthy and McArthur in Arnhem Land, and by Richard Lee among the !Kung. These studies show that hunter-gatherers need only work about twenty hours a week in order to survive and may devote the rest of their time to leisure.[3] Lee did not include food preparation time in his study, arguing that "work" should be defined as the time spent gathering enough food for sustenance.[4] When total time spent on food acquisition, processing, and cooking was added together, the estimate per week was 44.5 hours for men and 40.1 hours for women, but Lee added that this is still less than the total hours spent on work and housework in many modern Western households.[4
Before WWI, there existed a "leisure" class. Im not talking about landed gentry, or rich capitalists. Im talking about prudent middle class people who had worked and saved and could retire on those savings, whenever they wanted. There were whole towns in England like Brighton and Bournemouth, where these retired leisure class lived. Living off their savings.

But the leisure society was wiped out in the 20th century. Going off the gold standard after WWI, meant there was no reliable way to save. Paper money lost its value through inflation. People were forced to speculate with their savings, by handing them over to some leech in the city, who would skim off most of it. Others were forced to depend on government "social insurance", a ponzi scheme which redistributes savings from savers to the feckless.

Many people now realise that the various schemes of the 20th century were in fact scams. They are going back to things like gold. But even gold is not perfect. Its messy and expensive to handle. Now technology has given us the ability to create a store of value even superior to gold. The invention of Bitcoin allows people to save without the ravages of inflation. Bitcoin mimics all the properties of gold. It is scarce and finite. It is impervious to counterfeit. It is portable, concealable and anonymous.

But Bitcoin goes far beyond the the properties of gold. It can be spent at a distance, sent over wires, around the world instantly, in any amount. It is the 21st century version of gold. Bitcoins will enable us to rebuild the leisure society.


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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:49 am 
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Posts: 725
There's been some really daft posts here. The leisure class exists big time in Ireland still, anybody with a pension and especially the retired civil servants or semi state workers. That's leisure.

Then the last one about Bit Coin, what a joke. It's a type of money, it's nothing new under the sun and will not change anything fundamental about our lives.

Improving the way work is organised in society is a good and noble cause that I back up. However I don't think the solution is to force cutbacks to 3-4 day work weeks etc. That's just not going to work as investment is going to be hard to find on the ground (global competition in business and for investment).

Ireland needs to focus on reducing dependence on social welfare first, over 50% of the population is getting some sort of social transfer.

A very important point is improving the relationship between employees and companies. The way businesses almost solely are valued on shareholder return and forget about their employees welfare and the working culture is a scandal. They way HR depts are run they should be called 'workerbot resources' for the amount of CARE they put into things. I'm so browned off at this point I just want to freelance or operate my own company.

Finally some people think that if robots replaced workers that this money would be redistributed back into society, when has this ever happened? The asset owners and company owners will not voluntarily pay people to sit at home, and should they? Plus global competition will ensure that the ruthless most cost cutting operations will survive unless massive trade protectionism is put in place.


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 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:10 pm 
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Joined: May 20, 2008
Posts: 116
tulip wrote:
We have strayed very far from our evolutionary roots. We are still hunter-gatherers physically and mentally. Our minds that allowed us to top our food pyramid with a very limited body has gone onto create a world for ourselves that is unhealthy for us. The food we eat is not what our bodies spent Millennia evolving to eat and is making us sick. The work we do sitting in chairs, doing monotonous tasks with little scope for self expression or human interaction is making us sick.

In hunter-gatherer societies the average person spends 20 hours a week "working" although in most hunter-gatherer societies they don't know what "working" is. When housework is added in hunter-gatherers work roughly 40 hours a week. When you add in house work to an industrial persons work time I'd say we spend probably 50-60 hours a week working. We are trying to force a hunter-gatherer mind and body into an industrial world rather than trying to shape our industrial world to help the hunter-gatherer.


Somewhat OT, but I'd be wary of straying to far into paleo-fantasy w.r.t. diet and lifestyle. The hardcore paleo movement has been pretty thoroughly debunked at this point: beyond the fairly common-sense edicts of eat less processed food, eat less in general and exercise more. Modelling ourselves on our cavepeople ancestors may be superficially attractive, but they and their environment are genetically and evolutionarily distinct from us and ours - to the extent that trying to derive detailed nutritional/behavioural cues from them is at best pointless and at worst damaging.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-paleo-diet-half-baked-how-hunter-gatherer-really-eat

That said, sitting in cars and office chairs for over 40 hours a week is definitely not doing us any favours.


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