Board index » The Property Pin Website - Open Development » theideapin.com - Open Dev

Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  [Go to page]   Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:22 pm 
Online
Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Oct 22, 2007
Posts: 1732
gronlander wrote:
tulip wrote:
We have strayed very far from our evolutionary roots. We are still hunter-gatherers physically and mentally. Our minds that allowed us to top our food pyramid with a very limited body has gone onto create a world for ourselves that is unhealthy for us. The food we eat is not what our bodies spent Millennia evolving to eat and is making us sick. The work we do sitting in chairs, doing monotonous tasks with little scope for self expression or human interaction is making us sick.

In hunter-gatherer societies the average person spends 20 hours a week "working" although in most hunter-gatherer societies they don't know what "working" is. When housework is added in hunter-gatherers work roughly 40 hours a week. When you add in house work to an industrial persons work time I'd say we spend probably 50-60 hours a week working. We are trying to force a hunter-gatherer mind and body into an industrial world rather than trying to shape our industrial world to help the hunter-gatherer.


Somewhat OT, but I'd be wary of straying to far into paleo-fantasy w.r.t. diet and lifestyle. The hardcore paleo movement has been pretty thoroughly debunked at this point: beyond the fairly common-sense edicts of eat less processed food, eat less in general and exercise more. Modelling ourselves on our cavepeople ancestors may be superficially attractive, but they and their environment are genetically and evolutionarily distinct from us and ours - to the extent that trying to derive detailed nutritional/behavioural cues from them is at best pointless and at worst damaging.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-paleo-diet-half-baked-how-hunter-gatherer-really-eat

That said, sitting in cars and office chairs for over 40 hours a week is definitely not doing us any favours.


Thanks for the link Gronlander. I'll have to look into all that. I had been starting to have doubts about some of it. I'd stumbled across articles on work being done about bacteria in our bodies and was wondering whether they had evolved to allow us to process foods that we previously couldn't.

_________________
No tool is omnicompetent. There is no such thing as a master-key that will unlock all doors.
--Arnold Toynbee

If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid.
--Epictetus


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:27 pm 
Offline
Too Big to Fail

Joined: May 18, 2009
Posts: 4131
tulip wrote:
Thanks for the link Gronlander. I'll have to look into all that. I had been starting to have doubts about some of it. I'd stumbled across articles on work being done about bacteria in our bodies and was wondering whether they had evolved to allow us to process foods that we previously couldn't.


What foods would they be?

_________________
"Abortion is the only event that modern liberals think too violent and obscene to portray on TV. This is not because they are squeamish or prudish. It is because if people knew what Abortion really looked like, it would destroy their pretence that it is a civilized answer to the problem of what to do about unwanted babies." ~ Peter Hitchen


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:46 pm 
Online
Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Oct 22, 2007
Posts: 1732
Mossy_Heneberry wrote:
tulip wrote:
Thanks for the link Gronlander. I'll have to look into all that. I had been starting to have doubts about some of it. I'd stumbled across articles on work being done about bacteria in our bodies and was wondering whether they had evolved to allow us to process foods that we previously couldn't.


What foods would they be?


Grains and legumes are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Paleo does not like them because they contain pythic acid which binds with minerals in the intestine not allowing them to become absorbed in the intestine. This means that minerals that the body could use are not available and get flushed out as waste. It'd be interesting to see if humans have developed an enzyme to combat this. I've heard a way to figure out how quickly you metabolise food is to eat a can of corn and see how long it takes to get flushed out the other end as the body can't process corn and it comes out the other end intact.

_________________
No tool is omnicompetent. There is no such thing as a master-key that will unlock all doors.
--Arnold Toynbee

If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid.
--Epictetus


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:47 pm 
Offline
Single Home Owner

Joined: May 20, 2008
Posts: 116
tulip wrote:
Thanks for the link Gronlander.


This link is an extended version of that article:
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/09/paleo_diet_is_founded_more_on_privilege_than_logic_partner/

As for the original topic, the paleo-fantasy probably extends to work and leisure as well. I am most definitely not an expert (I've played "Civilization" a lot), but it seems to me that every society - even hunter-gatherers - evolves "useless" jobs.

Most human societies seem to evolve a role like "shaman" which is an analog to everything from priests and bishops to doctors, alternative healers and yoga instructors. Agriculture, property and central planning for the tribe leads to politicians. Every tribe eventually needs elders to resolve disputes non-violently: judges. And societies evolve codes of practice to guide and limit these judges which requires specialists to advocate on behalf of disputants: barristers and solicitors. Trade with other tribes requires merchants: sales-people and shop assistants. Developments in technology for trade requires demonstrations and advocates: marketing (admittedly: often done via warfare. "See how impressive this iron sword I'm using is? It completely ruined your bronze helmet. And your head."). Advances in communication require scribes to write stuff down and couriers to carry letters: that's your iOS developer and mobile phone salesperson right there. More complex developments in technology, agriculture and medicine require an academy: academics. More sophisticated cultural development calls for bards and minstrels: which gets us Brendan Kennelly and Mumford and Sons. Centrally planned societies need taxes to function requiring tax collectors and tally-men: accountants, basically. Niche technologies require specialists, for example shoeing horses required farriers and blacksmiths. Problem with your newly-shoed horse? You probably talk to the blacksmith's apprentice: IOW, tech support.

Eventually: interaction with the state reaches a level of complexity that it requires specialised beauraucrats: hello civil service.

Most damningly: based on the museums I've visited, most hunter-gatherer societies seem to be just as fond of useless tat as we are. Archaeologists have dug up an astonishing array of beads, decorative jugs, hair adornments, necklaces, torcs, ceremonial weapons etc. The ancients may have imputed religious power to some of these artefacts, but there is no doubt in my mind that their primary intention was to impart status to the wearer. A ceramic water vessel with intricate patterns on it is the prehistoric equivalent of an Audi.

I'm not saying we couldn't plan the world of work in a way that more closely matches humanity: but I am saying that romanticising the past is not the way to do it.

Furthermore: I'd argue that no other period in history and few other places in the world offer the facilities for self-expression that Ireland of the 21st century does. Sick of your 9-to-5 photocopying job? Jack it in: get a part-time job flipping burgers (or just go on the dole), pick up a cheap laptop, some cables and a guitar from e-bay and create some music. Don't know how to play guitar? Go to your local library and get a book. Want an audience? Go busking. Want distribution? Upload your work to the internet.

Self-expression and creativity is not incompatible with work: it's just orthogonal to it. The society we have built allows for people to become actors and crafts-people if they want to, and it gives them a decent level of support. Yes: if you want to drive an Audi, live in a nice house, take luxury holidays and eventually draw down a massive pension: you may have to give over more of your time to non-expressive pursuits, but I'm not sure I see that as tremendously unfair. I know people who have to various extents "dropped out" of the rat-race to become more creatively fulfilled and/or self-sufficient. They seem very happy, but they have to work really hard at it, and they are willing to forgo the "approval" of their extended families/society ("John you're a smart chap, why can't you get a good job as an accountant like your brother instead of that busking/painting/organic farming/poetry thing you're at").

Again: I'm all in favour of reforming the system, but let's be aware of what we've got first.

- gl


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:21 pm 
Offline
IMF'd

Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 31556
Location: Tullamore
Still, gronlander, there can be no excuse for IT project managers... not now that we no longer need a prepared cadre of sacrificial victims to appease the gods...

_________________
"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:08 am 
Offline
Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Aug 4, 2007
Posts: 5293
Location: Ahernistan
yoganmahew wrote:
Still, gronlander, there can be no excuse for IT project managers... not now that we no longer need a prepared cadre of sacrificial victims to appease the gods...



Ah YM, Project Managers have many important, & under appreciated skills :D



They stop engineers having to listen to whining customers when they discover the software doesn't have a feature they never asked for !

_________________
"Mr Kelly said Ireland’s “reputational capital” had been damaged by “chancers” such as ex-Anglo Irish Bank chairman Seán FitzPatrick, who had been abetted by “buffoons” such as former financial regulator Patrick Neary, Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan and the Taoiseach." - Irish Times 13th Jan 2009

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." (Catherine Aird)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:07 am 
Offline
IMF'd

Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 31556
Location: Tullamore
:D

"Did we forget that bit? Or just not bother?"

_________________
"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:23 am 
Offline
Single Home Owner

Joined: May 20, 2008
Posts: 116
Quote:
They stop engineers having to listen to whining customers when they discover the software doesn't have a feature they never asked for !


Indeed. To an engineer, a good project manager functions much like a mudflap. They're not exactly essential, but I wouldn't put them in the "telephone sanitiser" category.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:25 pm 
Online
Under CAB Investigation

Joined: Oct 22, 2007
Posts: 1732
gronlander wrote:
tulip wrote:
Thanks for the link Gronlander.


This link is an extended version of that article:
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/09/paleo_diet_is_founded_more_on_privilege_than_logic_partner/

As for the original topic, the paleo-fantasy probably extends to work and leisure as well. I am most definitely not an expert (I've played "Civilization" a lot), but it seems to me that every society - even hunter-gatherers - evolves "useless" jobs.

Most human societies seem to evolve a role like "shaman" which is an analog to everything from priests and bishops to doctors, alternative healers and yoga instructors. Agriculture, property and central planning for the tribe leads to politicians. Every tribe eventually needs elders to resolve disputes non-violently: judges. And societies evolve codes of practice to guide and limit these judges which requires specialists to advocate on behalf of disputants: barristers and solicitors. Trade with other tribes requires merchants: sales-people and shop assistants. Developments in technology for trade requires demonstrations and advocates: marketing (admittedly: often done via warfare. "See how impressive this iron sword I'm using is? It completely ruined your bronze helmet. And your head."). Advances in communication require scribes to write stuff down and couriers to carry letters: that's your iOS developer and mobile phone salesperson right there. More complex developments in technology, agriculture and medicine require an academy: academics. More sophisticated cultural development calls for bards and minstrels: which gets us Brendan Kennelly and Mumford and Sons. Centrally planned societies need taxes to function requiring tax collectors and tally-men: accountants, basically. Niche technologies require specialists, for example shoeing horses required farriers and blacksmiths. Problem with your newly-shoed horse? You probably talk to the blacksmith's apprentice: IOW, tech support.

Eventually: interaction with the state reaches a level of complexity that it requires specialised beauraucrats: hello civil service.

Most damningly: based on the museums I've visited, most hunter-gatherer societies seem to be just as fond of useless tat as we are. Archaeologists have dug up an astonishing array of beads, decorative jugs, hair adornments, necklaces, torcs, ceremonial weapons etc. The ancients may have imputed religious power to some of these artefacts, but there is no doubt in my mind that their primary intention was to impart status to the wearer. A ceramic water vessel with intricate patterns on it is the prehistoric equivalent of an Audi.

I'm not saying we couldn't plan the world of work in a way that more closely matches humanity: but I am saying that romanticising the past is not the way to do it.

Furthermore: I'd argue that no other period in history and few other places in the world offer the facilities for self-expression that Ireland of the 21st century does. Sick of your 9-to-5 photocopying job? Jack it in: get a part-time job flipping burgers (or just go on the dole), pick up a cheap laptop, some cables and a guitar from e-bay and create some music. Don't know how to play guitar? Go to your local library and get a book. Want an audience? Go busking. Want distribution? Upload your work to the internet.

Self-expression and creativity is not incompatible with work: it's just orthogonal to it. The society we have built allows for people to become actors and crafts-people if they want to, and it gives them a decent level of support. Yes: if you want to drive an Audi, live in a nice house, take luxury holidays and eventually draw down a massive pension: you may have to give over more of your time to non-expressive pursuits, but I'm not sure I see that as tremendously unfair. I know people who have to various extents "dropped out" of the rat-race to become more creatively fulfilled and/or self-sufficient. They seem very happy, but they have to work really hard at it, and they are willing to forgo the "approval" of their extended families/society ("John you're a smart chap, why can't you get a good job as an accountant like your brother instead of that busking/painting/organic farming/poetry thing you're at").

Again: I'm all in favour of reforming the system, but let's be aware of what we've got first.

- gl


Good post. I agree the modern world, well as we experience it in the West, does give us a lot of opportunities to express ourselves and we should be aware of that and not take it for granted. I do wonder for how long it can continue, there are a lot of internal and external pressures on it now.

I do think you are confusing people who say they are paleo to those who'd class themselves neo-primalists i.e those who wish to see a return to hunter-gatherer level of society, that it was some utopia. I have plenty of time for what Paleo has to say. To me it's saying that in our dash towards our agricultural/industrial/technological future some of aspects of our health and well being may have been left behind or forgotten. It then looks to the time before these developments to see what we can learn from it, can it provide us with answers and in a lot of cases it is starting to look like it can.

For example It's starting to look like the surge in recent times of sugar/simple carbs intake and it's resultant insulin spike is the reason for the increase in obesity and not fat as has been said for the last 40 years. Paleo says that if you look at hunter-gatherer groups there is less/no sugar, more animal fats in their diet and less obesity is their a link? Then it goes and looks for medical scientific confirmation. In hunter-gatherer times and indeed still in most of Asia, people squat or live on the floor ie not in chairs or at tables and the incidences of hip disease in Asia are significantly lower.

I don't think that Mark Sissons who I think coined the Grok term would agree that all of modernity is bad. Modern sanitation and medical knowledge means that Grokettes are likely to live past 15 years old in the west. We have more knowledge than we know to do with but we must use this to our advantage rather than have it use us. Technology can free us, but it also enslaves us. We've created all this food/technology/ideas, it's now time to sort the wheat from the chaff.

_________________
No tool is omnicompetent. There is no such thing as a master-key that will unlock all doors.
--Arnold Toynbee

If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid.
--Epictetus


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:45 pm 
Offline
IMF'd

Joined: Sep 13, 2007
Posts: 31556
Location: Tullamore
The whole paleo idea is based on a misunderstanding of what our ancestors ate and how they lived.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23314510

Farming of crops was well established in the stone age. Add to this the discovery of stone age annual calendars and you have a sophisticated agrarian society that hunted occasionally (given that dung was used, the question must surely be "from what animals" and were they reared for meat and milk... Occams Razor suggests the answer).

The mistake archeologists have made through the ages is to suppose that older=less sophisticated; that lack of surviving evidence=evidence that something did not happen. Of all the social sciences, archeology has clung to the Whiggish view of history most fiercely.

_________________
"It is impossible to design a system so perfect that no one needs to be good."

So long and thanks for all the fish.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:03 pm 
Offline
Of Systemic Importance
User avatar

Joined: Apr 1, 2009
Posts: 5311
Location: Utopia
tulip wrote:
I don't think that Mark Sissons who I think coined the Grok term would agree that all of modernity is bad.

I don't know what Mark Sissons's usage is, but grok was coined by Robert A Heinlein in Stranger in a Strange Land, iirc.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:10 pm 
Offline
Too Big to Fail

Joined: Apr 4, 2010
Posts: 4632
yoganmahew wrote:
The whole paleo idea is based on a misunderstanding of what our ancestors ate and how they lived.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23314510

Farming of crops was well established in the stone age. Add to this the discovery of stone age annual calendars and you have a sophisticated agrarian society that hunted occasionally (given that dung was used, the question must surely be "from what animals" and were they reared for meat and milk... Occams Razor suggests the answer).

The mistake archeologists have made through the ages is to suppose that older=less sophisticated; that lack of surviving evidence=evidence that something did not happen. Of all the social sciences, archeology has clung to the Whiggish view of history most fiercely.


Er...
Quote:
:wink:

There is a serious point, though, that the Paleonuts are constantly harping on about how hominids who were pretty obviously not genetically modern humans lived and why we should do the same.
"Homo erectus, not being Homo sapiens ate this and so it stands to reason, that we, being Homo sapiens and not Homo erectus must obviously do likewise."

Personally, my favourite bits of dietary advice remain:

"Eat food, not too much, mainly plants."

and from Billy Connolly

"Eat less, move around more."

_________________
People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.


Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations
Book I, Chapter X, Part II,


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:40 pm 
Offline
Nationalised
User avatar

Joined: May 13, 2008
Posts: 11764
Location: Somewhere up in the hills
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:57 pm 
Offline
Of Systemic Importance

Joined: Aug 4, 2007
Posts: 5293
Location: Ahernistan
Coles2 wrote:
Image



And employment is a lagging indicator, & I believe the level of business confidence, & availability of credit defines the lag !

_________________
"Mr Kelly said Ireland’s “reputational capital” had been damaged by “chancers” such as ex-Anglo Irish Bank chairman Seán FitzPatrick, who had been abetted by “buffoons” such as former financial regulator Patrick Neary, Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan and the Taoiseach." - Irish Times 13th Jan 2009

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." (Catherine Aird)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "jobs, jobs, jobs" mantra. Is that where it's really
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:06 am 
Offline
Property Magnate

Joined: Dec 29, 2012
Posts: 641
Sitting about waiting for politicians to 'create' a job for you is a pure waste of time.

Sitting around waiting for politicians to 'create' a job for someone else..........

The papers call it silly season. Enjoy the warmth.

There is no job creation until the deficit is cut in a semi serious manner.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ]  [Go to page]   Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

    Board index » The Property Pin Website - Open Development » theideapin.com - Open Dev

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  

Follow, Retweet @dailypinster



Pyramid Built, Is Better Built! - Latest Property Discussions www.thepropertypin.com