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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:41 pm 
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Greece needs its Technocrats

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New Democracy reacted angrily on Friday to a report by the Institute of International Finance (IIF), which suggested that the conservatives and PASOK would have to form a post-election government or call on an administration of technocrats if Greece is going to stick to the terms of its bailout and remain in the euro.

The report also indicated that the two-party coalition would have trouble receiving wide public support for its actions, given that the anti-memorandum parties would win the majority of votes on Sunday.

The IIF report also suggested that if the post-election landscape is too fragmented for a coalition government to be formed, an administration of technocrats should take over the running of the country in order to ensure stability.

ND spokesman Yiannis Michelakis issued a statement condemning the IIF’s report and suggesting that it was an attempt to interfere in the elections. “We are greatly surprised by the references to the Greek elections on May 6 in the IIF’s report,” he said. “We remind the authors of the report that we have a democracy in Greece and we do not need anyone’s instructions.”

Michelakis, however, did not comment on a statement by German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble that Greece would have to “bear the consequences” if its voters elected a new government that does not respect commitments made by the outgoing coalition. Schaeuble also noted that European Union membership is “voluntary.”

New Democracy leader Antonis Samaras rounded off the election campaign with a rally in Alexandroupoli, northeastern Greece. The conservative chief repeated his message to voters to give his party a clear majority.

Interior Minister Tassos Yiannitsis said he expects about 12 percent of polling stations will have delivered results by 9.30 p.m. on Sunday. Polls open at 7 a.m. and close at 7 p.m

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:18 pm 
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johnnyone234 wrote:
Greece needs its Technocrats

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New Democracy reacted angrily on Friday to a report by the Institute of International Finance (IIF), which suggested that the conservatives and PASOK would have to form a post-election government or call on an administration of technocrats if Greece is going to stick to the terms of its bailout and remain in the euro.

The report also indicated that the two-party coalition would have trouble receiving wide public support for its actions, given that the anti-memorandum parties would win the majority of votes on Sunday.

The IIF report also suggested that if the post-election landscape is too fragmented for a coalition government to be formed, an administration of technocrats should take over the running of the country in order to ensure stability.

ND spokesman Yiannis Michelakis issued a statement condemning the IIF’s report and suggesting that it was an attempt to interfere in the elections. “We are greatly surprised by the references to the Greek elections on May 6 in the IIF’s report,” he said. “We remind the authors of the report that we have a democracy in Greece and we do not need anyone’s instructions.”

Michelakis, however, did not comment on a statement by German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble that Greece would have to “bear the consequences” if its voters elected a new government that does not respect commitments made by the outgoing coalition. Schaeuble also noted that European Union membership is “voluntary.”

New Democracy leader Antonis Samaras rounded off the election campaign with a rally in Alexandroupoli, northeastern Greece. The conservative chief repeated his message to voters to give his party a clear majority.

Interior Minister Tassos Yiannitsis said he expects about 12 percent of polling stations will have delivered results by 9.30 p.m. on Sunday. Polls open at 7 a.m. and close at 7 p.m



If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing time after time & expecting different results; then the Greeks are surely insane if they imagine that electing another group of Politicians who think closing their eyes, sticking fingers in their ears & going nah-nah-nah constitutes an economic policy, will fix their economy.

They're doubly insane if they think the Germans won't cut their funding off & let them rot.

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:49 am 
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The Greek NeoNazi party won 21 seats.

At a press conference, party "security men" threatened to eject any journalist who didn't stand up as a mark of respect to their leader when he entered the room.



Coming soon to a country near you.

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:02 am 
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Puck may be Famous wrote:
The Greek NeoNazi party won 21 seats.

At a press conference, party "security men" threatened to eject any journalist who didn't stand up as a mark of respect to their leader when he entered the room.

The term neo-nazi is bandied about quite a lot. Yer man, Geert Wilders in the Neederlands is called neo-nazi, but is a long way from it.

This, though, this enforced formalism, enforced 'respect', if true, that's neo-nazi...

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Coming soon to a country near you.

I'm not so sure. Younger Irish people are not good at giving respect... 8DD

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:22 am 
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The joke doing the rounds over the last few years is that Greeks don't wonder what they'd do without the EZ, but rather what the EZ would do without them.

I sense there is a kernel of truth in this. At the risk of descending into crass stereotyping, it seems to me that macho-man arrogance, the Latin love of melodrama and extreme solipsism seem to be strong players in the psychology at work there. Greek politicians still seem to be playing at internal politics without due regard for the substance (the incredibly important substance) that lies beneath.

There is then the matter of all that uncollected tax - again, the disconnect between the psychology in Greece and the rest of Europe seems enormous. To the rest of us, it seems incomprehensible how the State authorities cannot match every citizen to a realistic income and tax them appropriately. There seems a fundamental absence of the kind of civil and bureaucratic infrastructure to see that this happens. This kind of orderly public administration is supposed to be a hallmark of all EU states - the kind of thing that separates us from the savages.

Then there is the corruption, which seems decades behind the rest of us (yes, even our crowd are in the ha'penny place on this). And there is the presence of communists and neo-Nazi's in the public square. I hate to say it, but Greece seems more like a former Soviet republic, a Stan maybe, than the rest of Western Europe. Or perhaps the way the rest of Europe was 25 years ago. In all honesty I didn't realise any of this before 2008 or whenever it all fell apart.

I think Greece has broken the implicit and explicit terms of EU and EZ membership. In the same breath I find myself wanting to say they are better out of it, and that this shows how important it is Ireland stays in and continues to be seen as a 21st century nation and not one caught decades out of time.


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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:36 am 
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Puck may be Famous wrote:
The Greek NeoNazi party won 21 seats.

At a press conference, party "security men" threatened to eject any journalist who didn't stand up as a mark of respect to their leader when he entered the room.

Two points: as a journalist, I'd have lost all respect for myself if I stood for that thug. I'd be much happier being chucked out.

Secondly, if I were Greek and had any skills at all, I'd be out of that dump like a shot.


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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:20 am 
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yoganmahew wrote:
The term neo-nazi is bandied about quite a lot. Yer man, Geert Wilders in the Neederlands is called neo-nazi, but is a long way from it.


Agreed. However when I see the red-and-black flags with the faux swastikas and the skinhead heavies I'm inclined to think that their not just another run-of-the-mill anti-immigant party.

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"By a continuing process of inflation, government can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens.- John Maynard Keynes, Economic Consequences of Peace


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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:36 am 
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Larry wrote:
I think Greece has broken the implicit and explicit terms of EU and EZ membership. In the same breath I find myself wanting to say they are better out of it, and that this shows how important it is Ireland stays in and continues to be seen as a 21st century nation and not one caught decades out of time.


That's it in a nutshell. Like a substance abuser, they need a wake up call. Kick them out of the family home and if they refuse to get treatment - well, at least they can't cause havoc for the rest of the family.


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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:47 pm 
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Less Pro-cyclical policy for Greece


Quote:
Charles Dallara, head of the Institute of International Finance who negotiated a Greek debt swap on behalf of private bondholders, said on Tuesday that the pace of the country’s budget cuts could be slowed.

“On a cyclically-adjusted basis they have contracted their budget by over 10 percent over the last two years, and in the current environment one can make a strong case that the pace of fiscal adjustment could be moderated,” Dallara said in an interview with Bloomberg Television’s Guy Johnson.

Still, “the neccessity of privatization, of structural reforms remains quite essential. The broad outlines of this program are going to be needed by whomever runs the country.”


http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_ar ... 012_441197

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House prices are cyclical, no nation has ever lived through a perpetual house price expansion or contraction.
Money is a public good; as such, it lends itself to private exploitation - CP Kindleberger


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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:20 pm 
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Puck may be Famous wrote:
The Greek NeoNazi party won 21 seats.

At a press conference, party "security men" threatened to eject any journalist who didn't stand up as a mark of respect to their leader when he entered the room.



Coming soon to a country near you.


This, while pretty shocking, is also quite inevitable really.

The similarities with the 1930s are becoming more and more striking.

For example, I personally, a person who is actually engaged with 'events' (at least to a degree) have basically found myself deeming democracy to be more or less defunct since about two/three years ago. And, based on my experience of most conclusions that I have come to over the past decade (maybe in common with many other posters on this site) going mainstream about five or six years after I arrived at the viewpoint myself, such an opinion may begin to find common currency among the general populace in about another two to three years!
It seems that many Greeks are already beginning to move in that direction themselves. With the impossibility of any political parties implementing policies anyway different to their predecessors (á la FG/LAB here in Ireland), and said policies being extremely unpopular, it is quite likely that more and more people are going to become disillusioned with the political process itself.
Of course, the million dollar question is what do you replace democracy with? Id have a few ideas but they would be unpalatable to the majority....so it seems the likes of extreme nationalism and anti-immigration tacks (think Hitler's focus on the Jews) are likely to become more appealing to many.

The Greek Civil War anyone?

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:27 pm 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
For example, I personally, a person who is actually engaged with 'events' (at least to a degree) have basically found myself deeming democracy to be more or less defunct since about two/three years ago. And, based on my experience of most conclusions that I have come to over the past decade (maybe in common with many other posters on this site) going mainstream about five or six years after I arrived at the viewpoint myself, such an opinion may begin to find common currency among the general populace in about another two to three years!

I hate to go all Godwins, but that is how the fascists won in both Italy and Germany (and probably in Spain too). Disengagement from democracy = leaving it to someone else to take over (and I see you did allude to that later in your post).

What I find most shocking about the Greek election is a 65% turnout...

edit: What I mean is that disengagement in the hope that something better will come along is not a winning strategy. Experience says that disengagement leads to something worse.

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:54 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
I hate to go all Godwins, but that is how the fascists won in both Italy and Germany (and probably in Spain too). Disengagement from democracy = leaving it to someone else to take over (and I see you did allude to that later in your post).

What I find most shocking about the Greek election is a 65% turnout...

edit: What I mean is that disengagement in the hope that something better will come along is not a winning strategy. Experience says that disengagement leads to something worse.


But there is a reason for the disengagement Yogan (and the fact is that this has been inevitable since about 2008 - and many of us here have been saying so)...and its partly down to the fact that no matter who you vote for, in reality you are voting for the same thing (unless you are going the local issues route...which may actually be the thing that spares Ireland from the worst effects of the extremist bug....saved by gombeenist clientelism so to speak!).

I really dont see an out for the system as it stands. People have been treated like children since birth in order to make them into compliant consumer drones...and for the most part this is how they have behaved....we've all been witness to it....encouraged at every step by a cheerleading political, media and business class. An interesting aside in yer man's speech above is his utter disdain for the media. He seems to view them as the most insidious part of the establishment...and if Im honest, I could almost feel his pain on that one....scary no?

However, those who encouraged the indoctrination process that I referred to above, as well as the conscious and intentioned stunting of any real intellectual development across this society (due IMO to their deeming the capacity for independent thought to be a danger) are now demanding that people behave as 'adults' and engage with events from the perspective of there existing a 'common good' ie we're all in it together blah blah blah. In other words they are asking that people employ a 'big picture' approach when they dont even know what picture they're supposed to be looking at. Its not going to work...or if it does, such sentiment is more likely to be misappropriated by the Golden Dawns of this world and construed in a manner which suggests a common identity under one flag, one nation, one race etc

Unfortunately, at this stage civil strife is practically a given IMO. The best we can hope for is that no new war breaks out. Those of us possessed of ideals (and maybe a bit of a conscience) may soon be forced to make some hard choices....to be honest Im just glad I dont have any kids....

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:59 pm 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
But there is a reason for the disengagement Yogan (and the fact that this has been inevitable since about 2008 - and many of us here have been saying so)...and its partly down to the fact that no matter who you vote for, in reality you are voting for the same thing (unless you are going the local issues route...which may actually be the thing that spares Ireland from the worst effects of the extremist bug....saved by gombeenist clientelism so to speak!).

But isn't this nearly always the case? Different flavours of essentially the same system? The same rules with different emphasis?

It's only if you get everyone to vote for the ULA, or some fascists, or radicals of whatever stripe, that you'd see major structural changes in your society. At present, from a 'mainstream' perspective, you have the bailouts or you have chaos. No mainstream party is going to stand up and ask you to choose chaos - even if in reality the chaos is likely to be short-lived (say a year or two) compared to a decade or two of grinding austerity.


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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:18 pm 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
But there is a reason for the disengagement Yogan (and the fact is that this has been inevitable since about 2008 - and many of us here have been saying so)...and its partly down to the fact that no matter who you vote for, in reality you are voting for the same thing (unless you are going the local issues route...which may actually be the thing that spares Ireland from the worst effects of the extremist bug....saved by gombeenist clientelism so to speak!).

Yes, but the system is about choosing least bad choices. I don't see anyone who represents me either. I despite the self-interest, corruption and pork-barrelling of all politicians, bar none. The alternative, though, is, as you say, disengagement, which will result in worse outcomes. Hitler won a 2/3rds majority with 44% of the eligible voters. He was elected into power, in part by his supporters, in part by that 20% whose votes are easily bought by any old chicken-shit and in part by those who chose not to oppose him.

As Barney Gumble points out, aside from the 20%, there's 40% who don't really want major change, less tax for them personally, more spending on their pet issues would probably sum them up.

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 Post subject: Re: EU "will not bail out Greece"
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Unfortunately, at this stage civil strife is practically a given IMO. The best we can hope for is that no new war breaks out. Those of us possessed of ideals (and maybe a bit of a conscience) may soon be forced to make some hard choices....to be honest Im just glad I dont have any kids....

Your view on events and likelihoods and their desirability may be determined by the latter, but many people will have the opposite view because they do have children.

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