You must be taking the piss. A crank. Tell me why was the whole European project set up in the first place?! What is the whole point of it? Who set it up, what were their thoughts, experiences, intentions? I'll tell you - it was to ensure that what happened in WW1 and 2 could never happen again. That is all of it. That is why among other things the Euro was set up even though it was well known that economically it would precipitate crisis... The European project has always been about making the interests of all Europeans one and the same. To progress beyond that status quo where the exclusive consideration of one's own self-interest lead to struggle and conflict, where the principle of each for himself, which is the war of all against all, could not be anymore. A real solidarity among nations... So, Farage would lead us back to where we were... Also, I did not say, "self-regard for one's own nation". I said, "sentimental self-regard for one's own race and nation". There is a lot more in what I said than what you mis-quoted me as saying - in degree and in factual aspects. Sentimental self-regard is very different to self-regard. Sentimental self-regard for one's own race and nation is different again to what you said. In the case of Farage, the cap fits very well - I meant exactly what I wrote.

Actually roc he doesn't pretend to have the answers. That's kind of refreshing, really. He just repeatedly points up the insanity of the groupthink course.

But yes, the others are part of the problem.

Economic integration helps to prevent wars. Nobody disagrees with this. Farage's point is that the cost of artificially gluing diverse countries together can sometimes outweigh the benefits. The bastion of European integration Charles de Gaulle was against GB joining the EEC (or whatever it was called) - because he thought it was too dissimilar to the other economies.
I deliberately removed the reference to "race" from your quote because I didn't want to sidetrack the debate. But let's go there now. Farage may well be racist - but I've never heard him say anything racist. You accuse him of being racist - please provide examples. Demanding a minimum level of integration is not racist. Being in favour of tougher immigration is not racist.

What do you mean "logic fail"? Do you mean a failure of logic?
I'm not siding with anyone in this bun fight. I'm saying Farage is an egotistical tool who hasn't really grown up, that's all.
What has Farage done to stop or change the madness? Apart from his little speeches every now and then, what has he done that's constructive?I have the nerve to castigate a politician who has been happily sucking on the European Parliament teat for many years, yes. What, I should fucking bend my head and tug my forelock? He's a tosser.

Glad you made your way to the subtracting but his policies do not add up


Surely increased defense spending is a form or bigger government by the liberatrian
Who gets to decide the way the spoils are divided up?
Most of his other policies are Bush like
Lower taxes and increase spending bs

The UK is a nuclear power, i dont think anyone is going to invade anytime soon
Defense is just a soical welfare programme, same as any other

The pro war liberatrian

That's his key point? What does it even mean?
The "hole" can't be debt or deficit - on a Euro Zone level neither debt nor deficit levels are extended whatsoever. The Euro Zone is undergoing a crisis of confidence, and it is pragmatism that will solve it; idealism has hamstrung the potential solutions, the last thing we need is even more idealistic nonsense.

The eurozone is a flawed (political) project since its outset. It can't be saved and shouldn't be saved either. I don't know why ye guys put such faith in politicians.

Quite alarming really.

Yes, the economic framework and points of reference that are needed for the ideal of solidarity and common interest are at the other end of the spectrum to those needed to serve the ideal of libertarianism and primacy of self-interest as promoted by some. You only say "the project was flawed from the outset" because you are a vocal and vociferous advocate of the libertarian creed. But others were and are advocates of other ideals. To them the project is not flawed. Far from it, they judge from the history of Europe that it is deeply necessary. Of course, it is a very challenging and difficult road. But that does not mean it should not be done.

And of course the pro-euro's have no self interests whatsoever?



No, the euro was flawed not because I'm a 'vociferous' libertarian but because it had inherent problems that were never ironed out. Those of us that pointed out those problems, usually meet a chorus of 'little englanders, racists and xenophobes'.


In other words it must be true because you believe it so. That’s cloud cuckoo land thinking.



Far from it, they’ve never studied history or studied it and formulated their own biased view of it. History has shown that common currency areas rarely work.

Well, to be fair, nobody in this thread has insinuated such.

If you think Ireland would prosper in today's world outside a common currency, with a free-floating Punt, you are mental.
The idea that we will return to an 80's-like export-led recovery is just wrong and ignores the massive global macro changes of the last two decades. I remember Fruit Of The Loom exporting tshirts from Donegal for example, even with a severely devalued Punt, you won't be competing with China or Vietnam or Bangladesh at exporting tshirts. Not unless life here takes an almost incomprehensible turn for the worse. And should that happen the only thing worse than the capital flight will be the intellectual flight.

The Euro needs extensive first aid, it needs a change in the mandate of the ECB and a pragmatic Bundesbank - and then it needs time. But it is in the vast majority of Irish peoples' interest that it survives.

And if you think that staying in the euro is the solution, you're just as mental.




Who said anything about exporting T-shirts?




The euro is finished. The sooner that's accepted the better.

If the Euro was a house, it would have been condemned!
Why?

It has only basic foundations (no reinforcement of any kind) but was built on made-up ground, parts of which are clay, some rock sand and is built in an area subject to coastal erosion, it's a miracle it's still standing!

Demolition and rebuilding is the only real answer, with properly designed foundations.

Actually, I thought it was a house of cards...........

Yes, cause we all know every successful country is member of a common currency.

Ireland's success will be measured by comparing the real value of its imports to its exports. It doesn't matter what currency these are denominated in. A common currency is beneficial because it removes currency transaction costs - but this is only a small fraction of the costs of doing business in a country.

On the other hand, the main risk of a government controlled currency is that the government gets addicted to printing the money to give to its supporters to keep itself in power. The more it does this, the higher the cost of doing business in the country. Would Irish politicians lose the run of themselves and keep printing and spending the Punt Nua until nobody accepts it? It's possible, albeit with our economically illiterate electorate about to vote in Sinn Fein it is looking much more likely.

Conclusion: it doesn't matter that much what our currency is - so long as we don't get overrun by school-teacher politicians with tax-and-spend-and-borrow policies, and need IMF bailouts etc etc.

Um... wait a sec...

Well, I wasn't convinced until you brought out the big intellectual guns but now......

By the way, you can buy a Dollar for less than one Euro so, evidently, it isn't "finished".