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 Post subject: Re: Thousands of professionals seek help to go bankrupt
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:46 pm 
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No I think that's muddying the waters. An architect accountant or solicitor dances with personal liability every day in their profession when giving opinions without limited liability. You can't "double bankrupt" them so how can they go round giving opinions and undertakings ?


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 Post subject: Re: Thousands of professionals seek help to go bankrupt
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:50 pm 
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How does this play out internationally?. Many of these professional bodies are part of larger global bodies or have equivalents abroad. Standards are supposed to be fairly common across countries passing themselves off as western societies.

Please don't tell the institute of chartered accountants of england and wales that the irish equivalent here (that had seanie fitz on the board) now wants paddy to practice giving out financial advice and judgement after bankruptcy.

The country is a laughing stock as it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousands of professionals seek help to go bankrupt
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:57 pm 
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GameBlame wrote:
No I think that's muddying the waters. An architect accountant or solicitor dances with personal liability every day in their profession when giving opinions without limited liability. You can't "double bankrupt" them so how can they go round giving opinions and undertakings ?



I'd hazard a guess and say the issue is client money.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousands of professionals seek help to go bankrupt
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:12 pm 
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mr_anderson wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
No I think that's muddying the waters. An architect accountant or solicitor dances with personal liability every day in their profession when giving opinions without limited liability. You can't "double bankrupt" them so how can they go round giving opinions and undertakings ?



I'd hazard a guess and say the issue is client money.


Doubtful. The Only professionals with client accounts are solicitors. And when they misbehave the Law Society makes them practice with somebody non dodgy. So there's precedent for overcoming the Client Account problem.

Most professions have arcane legacy rules about not allowing lunatics and bankrupts to practice. Pretty sensible if you ask me.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousands of professionals seek help to go bankrupt
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:32 pm 
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GameBlame wrote:
mr_anderson wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
No I think that's muddying the waters. An architect accountant or solicitor dances with personal liability every day in their profession when giving opinions without limited liability. You can't "double bankrupt" them so how can they go round giving opinions and undertakings ?



I'd hazard a guess and say the issue is client money.


Doubtful. The Only professionals with client accounts are solicitors. And when they misbehave the Law Society makes them practice with somebody non dodgy. So there's precedent for overcoming the Client Account problem.

Most professions have arcane legacy rules about not allowing lunatics and bankrupts to practice. Pretty sensible if you ask me.


Accountants hold significant client cash (depending on the field they operate in).
We've also had millions go missing from solicitors client accounts.
Estate Agents will also find it difficult to obtain a licence if bankrupt. Client money is a definite consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousands of professionals seek help to go bankrupt
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:49 pm 
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Perhaps FG could tack the follwoing wording onto the relevant article while they carpet bomb the constitution over the next while.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousands of professionals seek help to go bankrupt
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:48 pm 
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mr_anderson wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
mr_anderson wrote:
GameBlame wrote:
No I think that's muddying the waters. An architect accountant or solicitor dances with personal liability every day in their profession when giving opinions without limited liability. You can't "double bankrupt" them so how can they go round giving opinions and undertakings ?



I'd hazard a guess and say the issue is client money.


Doubtful. The Only professionals with client accounts are solicitors. And when they misbehave the Law Society makes them practice with somebody non dodgy. So there's precedent for overcoming the Client Account problem.

Most professions have arcane legacy rules about not allowing lunatics and bankrupts to practice. Pretty sensible if you ask me.


Accountants hold significant client cash (depending on the field they operate in).
We've also had millions go missing from solicitors client accounts.
Estate Agents will also find it difficult to obtain a licence if bankrupt. Client money is a definite consideration.



EAs hold the booking deposits so plenty of client money there. Not to mention rental agents collecting rent.

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 Post subject: Re: Thousands of professionals seek help to go bankrupt
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:10 pm 
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I had forgotten EAs and their client account.

But I think that you're mixing up two different issues. A lot of EAs and rental agents collecting rent are working through Limited Liability Companies. An undischarged bankrupt can't act as a director anyway

What Hall is alluding to is taking away someone's livelihood by virtue of them becoming bankrupt. i.e. they cannot be practice as a solicitor - I've no idea if the 1954 act is the relevant act but it mentions the lunacy and the bankruptcy stuff.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1954/en/ ... c0049.html

The Courts are generally in a lot of ways very lenient when it comes to livelihood. They'll let a lot of shysterism go on before they take away a man's right to earn one.


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 Post subject: Re: Thousands of professionals seek help to go bankrupt
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Location: London, innit
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/fin ... -1.3250014

Quote:
Professional debt still to be tackled, former Mazars head says
Banks have not dealt with investments made by doctors, lawyers and judges before crash

Irish banks, which have focused in recent years on restructuring troubled mortgages and businesses, have yet to properly tackle unsustainable debt accumulated by professionals before the property crash, according to Simon Coyle, a leading corporate restructuring figure during the crisis.
Mr Coyle (62) stepped down as managing partner at Mazars Ireland at the end of August after more than 35 years with the firm, and was succeeded by Mark Kennedy, who joined the business in 1995 before becoming a partner in 2004.
“Most of the corporate issues have been cleared up but there is still a significant overhang on the personal side,” said Mr Coyle. “There’s a certain element that has been delayed as banks dealt with more time-critical stuff. Anecdotally, it would appear that the professional classes – doctors, lawyers, engineers, judges – are still in play.”


funnily enough, a reliable source was telling me over the summer of several partners in her big 4 firm who had to retire upon reaching 65 who still had mid 7 figure debt to work through (syndicates etc); of course they couldn't declare bankruptcy while practicing and now have earning potential vastly diminished


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 Post subject: Re: Thousands of professionals seek help to go bankrupt
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:35 pm 
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slasher wrote:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/professional-debt-still-to-be-tackled-former-mazars-head-says-1.3250014

Quote:
Professional debt still to be tackled, former Mazars head says
Banks have not dealt with investments made by doctors, lawyers and judges before crash

Irish banks, which have focused in recent years on restructuring troubled mortgages and businesses, have yet to properly tackle unsustainable debt accumulated by professionals before the property crash, according to Simon Coyle, a leading corporate restructuring figure during the crisis.
Mr Coyle (62) stepped down as managing partner at Mazars Ireland at the end of August after more than 35 years with the firm, and was succeeded by Mark Kennedy, who joined the business in 1995 before becoming a partner in 2004.
“Most of the corporate issues have been cleared up but there is still a significant overhang on the personal side,” said Mr Coyle. “There’s a certain element that has been delayed as banks dealt with more time-critical stuff. Anecdotally, it would appear that the professional classes – doctors, lawyers, engineers, judges – are still in play.”


funnily enough, a reliable source was telling me over the summer of several partners in her big 4 firm who had to retire upon reaching 65 who still had mid 7 figure debt to work through (syndicates etc); of course they couldn't declare bankruptcy while practicing and now have earning potential vastly diminished


i could well believe that


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