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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:06 am 
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BlameGame wrote:
Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
Barney Gumble wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Next up, demolition of their partners in crime, FG.

The country needs a centre-right party, be it FG or someone else. I'm not too keen on seeing us go down the Marxist route.


I think we need a whole new set of parties left and right....its no good having just one good party as then there are no options and eventually that party will become corrupted. Best case scenario is that FF cease to exist and FG and Labour get fried at the next election for the inevitable economic ruin that is coming. Maybe Sinn Fein and People before profit will get in
and while they ruin the country new parties will emerge.


Yes the country will be like Mad Max 3. Tina Turner will be in charge by then.
But the politics department of Trinity will be wetting themselves because finally there'll be a chance that they'll end up with a neat left/right divide that will agree to what it says in their politics textbooks.


doesnt have to be a clear left right divide, once we get a few decent parties going!! left, right, centrist or any mix once they are good and understand things like economics


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:09 am 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Jun 21, 2010
Posts: 3052
Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
doesnt have to be a clear left right divide, once we get a few decent parties going!! left, right, centrist or any mix once they are good and understand things like economics


IMO splitting the legislature and executive together with ending PR and particularly abolishing multi-seat constituencies is much more important if that's the goal you have.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:45 am 
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Posts: 1505
Strengthen local govt first. This should stop Gombeens getting elected as they would be less able to dole out the sweeties.
FF's annihilation was the most important step on the way to changing Irish politics. Not saying for a second that it' s enough. But it should frighten enough TD's into looking after the national as well as local interests.
As regards the bye-election FF will throw everything including the kitchen sink to win the contest. Fine Gael did it in Meath East back in 2004 and it signalled their recovery. But it won't be enough. Ongar and the like are right in negative equity country.

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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:10 am 
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obese_cat wrote:
Strengthen local govt first. This should stop Gombeens getting elected as they would be less able to dole out the sweeties.
FF's annihilation was the most important step on the way to changing Irish politics. Not saying for a second that it' s enough. But it should frighten enough TD's into looking after the national as well as local interests.
As regards the bye-election FF will throw everything including the kitchen sink to win the contest. Fine Gael did it in Meath East back in 2004 and it signalled their recovery. But it won't be enough. Ongar and the like are right in negative equity country.


The only problem is that local govt is a cesspool & our representatives there make the TDs look like the Vienna boys choir in comparison !

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"Mr Kelly said Ireland’s “reputational capital” had been damaged by “chancers” such as ex-Anglo Irish Bank chairman Seán FitzPatrick, who had been abetted by “buffoons” such as former financial regulator Patrick Neary, Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan and the Taoiseach." - Irish Times 13th Jan 2009

"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." (Catherine Aird)


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:36 am 
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Too Big to Fail

Joined: Jun 21, 2010
Posts: 3052
obese_cat wrote:
Strengthen local govt first. This should stop Gombeens getting elected as they would be less able to dole out the sweeties.


That's a mad prescription.
The one bit of real power (planning and development) they had they messed up.
Local Area Development Plans are grotesque documents formulated by inept, doctrinaire planning departments (sometimes in consultation with nimby or greedy existing residents) signed off on by malleable local politicos and then taken advantage of by artful developers.

There's more of an argument for weakening local government.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:21 pm 
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Joined: Aug 2, 2010
Posts: 434
obese_cat wrote:
t. This should stop Gombeens getting elected as they would be less able to dole out the sweeties.


what you are forgetting is that the electorate will vote for whom they want. Unfortunately there is a huge proportion of the electorate who are somewhat uneducated and unlearned in matters of reality and when it comes to voting they will vote according to their beliefs, desires and needs .... and in a democracy their vote is equal to those who spend their lives trying to understand everything and voting based on other reasonings.

Unless someone can suggest a method of denying a proportion of the populous a vote the demographic of elected representatives won't change significantly. Just think of Lowry topping poll after poll .....


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:28 pm 
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Tfp2000 wrote:
obese_cat wrote:
t. This should stop Gombeens getting elected as they would be less able to dole out the sweeties.


what you are forgetting is that the electorate will vote for whom they want. Unfortunately there is a huge proportion of the electorate who are somewhat uneducated and unlearned in matters of reality and when it comes to voting they will vote according to their beliefs, desires and needs .... and in a democracy their vote is equal to those who spend their lives trying to understand everything and voting based on other reasonings.

Unless someone can suggest a method of denying a proportion of the populous a vote the demographic of elected representatives won't change significantly. Just think of Lowry topping poll after poll .....


A third level education and those who run their own businesses ?


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:29 pm 
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Joined: Nov 6, 2006
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Location: Australia
We should be able to vote directly for Taoiseach and each ministry individually!
Taoiseach, Tainaiste and Finance Minister voted for first then a few weeks later they allocate funding to each ministry
each candidate for each ministry must campaign based on this funding (they are allowed introduce taxes too for extra)
and the people vote based on this.


How is that for a transparent and accountable system?

Remove the Presidency - let the Taoiseach sign legislation in and have the Tainaiste do the current Taoiseachs work. Remember Taoiseach, Tainaiste and the other ministries neednt be from the same parties!!

For Gods sake do something with the Senate!! Im all ears for suggestions!


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:32 pm 
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Posts: 434
everybody knows wrote:
Tfp2000 wrote:
A third level education and those who run their own businesses ?


so an adaption of the senate then?

So my father would be denied a vote, even though his mind is far superior to most folk I know and his understanding of economic, political and world issues are vast.

In a democracy the elected officials tend to be a reflection of society in general, not a perceived elite sub-set of the population


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:45 pm 
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Posts: 1503
Location: Doorway of an old Hotel
Tfp2000 wrote:
everybody knows wrote:
Tfp2000 wrote:
A third level education and those who run their own businesses ?


so an adaption of the senate then?

So my father would be denied a vote, even though his mind is far superior to most folk I know and his understanding of economic, political and world issues are vast.

In a democracy the elected officials tend to be a reflection of society in general, not a perceived elite sub-set of the population


I was being sarcastic .


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
We should be able to vote directly for Taoiseach and each ministry individually!
Taoiseach, Tainaiste and Finance Minister voted for first then a few weeks later they allocate funding to each ministry
each candidate for each ministry must campaign based on this funding (they are allowed introduce taxes too for extra)
and the people vote based on this.


How is that for a transparent and accountable system?

Remove the Presidency - let the Taoiseach sign legislation in and have the Tainaiste do the current Taoiseachs work. Remember Taoiseach, Tainaiste and the other ministries neednt be from the same parties!!

For Gods sake do something with the Senate!! Im all ears for suggestions!


Thats one very big election that you are proposing .

Ireland just needs to grow up . I have often heard this from the older generation dispite how much they dislike a party . People will often say " I hear he is decent man "

My Father actually said this about Lenihan a few years ago and he has actually banned one of last surviving relatives from the house for even suggesting that FF once did him a favour . Yet because he once head that he is a decent man would defend and vote for him if he could . Where he got that from is a bit of a mystery as he is housebound . Maybe the media ?


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:13 pm 
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Joined: Nov 7, 2008
Posts: 1317
Coles2 wrote:
I expect Labour would be favourite for the seat. FG haven't got any answers (either do Labour) and it's likely that the FG vote will have slipped a bit and that the FF vote will move towards Labour.


Hmmm, well according to the post recent and most accurate poll, the Sunday Business Post/Red C of Sunday May 31st 2011

Quote:
Fine Gael is up 2% to 41% – it’s highest level yet in an SBP poll [Check]. Labour is up 1% to 19%. Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin are unchanged on respectively 16% and 11% while Independents//Green Party and Others have dropped 3% to 13%.


http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... post-poll/

I can see FG gaining a seat here, if not them, then Labour as people come to see how ineffective the independents are and as much as I like Joe Higgins for a bit of colour I can't see him winning against the bigger campaign machines of the government parties. I also think the election will be held within 90 days given how much both government parties complained about the shameful delays under FF.

BlameGame wrote:
Tina Turner will be in charge by then.


Best idea so far... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:59 pm 
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Back Home with Mammy

Joined: Apr 6, 2008
Posts: 57
Well if you are looking for distasteful I suppose you could consider that at least BL did not have to worry about Charlie Haughey stealing from his treatment fund like his father.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:21 pm 
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Joined: Jan 4, 2010
Posts: 766
Location: Talamh an Éisc
mr_anderson wrote:
The change doesn't happen with the party, the change happens with the voters.
The party with the best policies don't get elected because of the short-sightedness and me-féinism of the electorate.

How do we rid ourselves of the gombeen gene ?


Amalgamate the rural constituencies. Give them one TD.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:27 pm 
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Joined: Aug 13, 2009
Posts: 916
@ Barney Gumble

Quote:
The country needs a centre-right party, be it FG or someone else. I'm not too keen on seeing us go down the Marxist route.


It may be a little too late for that. I seem to recall from my student days, many years ago, in a pique of idealism, I read the Communist Manifesto. If I recollect correctly, Marx postulated that society morphed from anarchy through to feudalism through to capitalism through to socialism to its ultimate perfection, communism.

Having recently socialised the losses (we are all bankers now), we must progress as a society and mutate into communists (what's yours is mine and what's mine is my own).

Grey paint anybody?

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