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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:28 pm 
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Ardillaun wrote:
mr_anderson wrote:
The change doesn't happen with the party, the change happens with the voters.
The party with the best policies don't get elected because of the short-sightedness and me-féinism of the electorate.

How do we rid ourselves of the gombeen gene ?


Amalgamate the rural constituencies. Give them one TD.


For each constituency or the whole country ? :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:29 pm 
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Enoch Root wrote:
@ Barney Gumble

Quote:
The country needs a centre-right party, be it FG or someone else. I'm not too keen on seeing us go down the Marxist route.


It may be a little too late for that. I seem to recall from my student days, many years ago, in a pique of idealism, I read the Communist Manifesto. If I recollect correctly, Marx postulated that society morphed from anarchy through to feudalism through to capitalism through to socialism to its ultimate perfection, communism.

Having recently socialised the losses (we are all bankers now), we must progress as a society and mutate into communists (what's yours is mine and what's mine is my own).

Grey paint anybody?


:D


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:35 pm 
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BlameGame wrote:
obese_cat wrote:
Strengthen local govt first. This should stop Gombeens getting elected as they would be less able to dole out the sweeties.


That's a mad prescription.
The one bit of real power (planning and development) they had they messed up.
Local Area Development Plans are grotesque documents formulated by inept, doctrinaire planning departments (sometimes in consultation with nimby or greedy existing residents) signed off on by malleable local politicos and then taken advantage of by artful developers.

There's more of an argument for weakening local government.


I hear what you are saying, and there would certainly be a degree of short term chaos....

But if local government had the power to raise taxes and spend this on services locally, it might just educate the electorate on the importance of having capable public representation in place of the local gombeen to dole out the sweets. It will require a mindset change, but how many would have bet on FF meltdown ten years ago?

It was only when the effects of their mis-management was felt by the populace that they decided to thow the fuckers out, maybe the other crowd won't be much better, but at least FF paid the price for their corruption and incompetence. I reckon at a local level the accountability would be even more obvious, and eventually the gombeens would be removed and capable people elected.

This recession and upheaval is all part of the nation growing up. We're beginning to take responsibility for ourselves, and yes it's painful, but unfortunately we chose to learn the hard way.

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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:27 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
While Joe Higgins made a good showing to be elected, I'd say it's between FG and Labour to lose.


Cometh the hour, cometh the nose!!!

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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:25 am 
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I would have thought the chap in the middle is favourite to take the seat. My guess is that he has been preparing for this by election for some time.

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Taxes are what we pay for civilized society. -- Oliver Wendell Homes.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:24 am 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
I agree. Hopefully they're finished.

Next up, demolition of their partners in crime, FG.

Laurel and bleedin Hardy...


Simplistic post. 'sterling analysis' by you.

How exactly are FG to blame for this mess they inherited? Richard Bruton continually attacked the Government about its dependence on property taxes and the excessive increase in public expenditure. Check the Dail record-that would of course involve work for you.. Yes,the 2007 manifesto was based on nonsense but the vast majority of manifestos are and they (FG) had no idea of the mess in the banks . FF-who if you recall were in power between 1997-2011 were in charge of supervising the banks. If your sole piece of evidence is the manifesto thats a weak argument that would be quickly thrown out in any court room to use your language.

R. Bruton also attacked the return of property tax breaks in 2002-see what a bit of research can do for you! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:24 pm 
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Balanced1970 wrote:

Simplistic post. 'sterling analysis' by you.

How exactly are FG to blame for this mess they inherited? Richard Bruton continually attacked the Government about its dependence on property taxes and the excessive increase in public expenditure. Check the Dail record-that would of course involve work for you.. Yes,the 2007 manifesto was based on nonsense but the vast majority of manifestos are and they (FG) had no idea of the mess in the banks . FF-who if you recall were in power between 1997-2011 were in charge of supervising the banks. If your sole piece of evidence is the manifesto thats a weak argument that would be quickly thrown out in any court room to use your language.

R. Bruton also attacked the return of property tax breaks in 2002-see what a bit of research can do for you! :wink:


More acceptance of the crisis of democracy which exists in this little state of ours.

If party manifestos are "nonsense", what of our democracy? Is that "nonsense" also? If an FFer came out with the same statement he'd be read the riot act. Why should your lot be allowed free reign? And on what basis do they now have a mandate for anything they are currently engaged in? Although, given their role in the re-running of the Lisbon Treaty referendum, it seems their contempt for the electorate matches that of their predecessor.

How does Bruton's utterances (which constituted about the only opposition they offered during 15 years) tie in with his party's record on planning matters at local level?

Can you point to any subsatntial policy differences which exist between the two great political institutions of this State?

How many bankers/financiers hold influence within FG?

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"It is difficult to be certain about anything except what you have seen with your own eyes, and consciously or unconsciously everyone writes as a partisan.”
― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


Last edited by Poacher turned gamekeeper on Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:30 pm 
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Rick Flair wrote:
I would have thought the chap in the middle is favourite to take the seat. My guess is that he has been preparing for this by election for some time.
.....

His "NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!" stance on water charges may be a bit of an issue!

http://patricknulty.wordpress.com/patrick-in-the-media/



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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:41 pm 
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Jesus, that's fighting talk from Patrick. Hard to see him doing it for Labour on his showing in the GE, or Kieran Dennison for FG for the same reasons. I can see both parties parachuting in a candidate from elsewhere.

http://www.rte.ie/news/election2011/res ... -west.html


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:42 pm 
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Balanced1970 wrote:
How exactly are FG to blame for this mess they inherited?

Sean Fitzpatrick is probably teeing off right now, maybe if FG grew a pair they might actually see justice done. Where's the bankruptcy reform (not words, action), that would distinguish FG from FF. Otherwise same land based parish pump fare. They define eachother.

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Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it. Those who do study history are doomed to watch everyone else repeating it.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:54 pm 
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Posts: 84
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Balanced1970 wrote:

Simplistic post. 'sterling analysis' by you.

How exactly are FG to blame for this mess they inherited? Richard Bruton continually attacked the Government about its dependence on property taxes and the excessive increase in public expenditure. Check the Dail record-that would of course involve work for you.. Yes,the 2007 manifesto was based on nonsense but the vast majority of manifestos are and they (FG) had no idea of the mess in the banks . FF-who if you recall were in power between 1997-2011 were in charge of supervising the banks. If your sole piece of evidence is the manifesto thats a weak argument that would be quickly thrown out in any court room to use your language.

R. Bruton also attacked the return of property tax breaks in 2002-see what a bit of research can do for you! :wink:


More acceptance of the crisis of democracy which exists in this little state of ours.

If party manifestos are "nonsense", what of our democracy? Is that "nonsense" also? If an FFer came out with the same statement he'd be read the riot act. Why should your lot be allowed free reign? And on what basis do they now have a mandate for anything they are currently engaged in? Although, given their role in the re-running of the Lisbon Treaty referendum, it seems their contempt for the electorate matches that of their predecessor.

How does Bruton's utterances (which constituted about the only opposition they offered during 15 years) tie in with his party's record on planning matters at local level?

Can you point to any subsatntial policy differences which exist between the two great political institutions of this State?

How many bankers/financiers hold influence within FG?

Its a bit of a leap to jump from saying manifestos are to be taken with a large pinch of salt to stating I said our democracy is nonsense. Where did I say that? You make me laugh asking about a mandate for current action! We have an 18 billion deficit and live off the kindness of strangers-separate from any banking crisis. Whoever is in power-even your left wing buddies would cut severely.
The people whom you seem to disdain-voted FG the biggest party in Ireland. by a mile/ Do you deny that? It will take time to burn the bondholders. As for re-running the treaty -where in any definition of democracy does it say you cant ask an electorate something twice? Where in our constitution does it say that?

There is a fundamental difference between FG and FF-we never fucked up IRELAND. FF did it three times-1930s.1977 and 1997 onwards. We are the party of steady integrity at national level anyway. I dont know enough about local Government to say how bad Fg were at local level.

We always clean up FF's mess. Richard Bruton was FG spokesperson on finance and when he spoke he spoke for FG. Benchmarking was also opposed by FG. I really dont have time to give you a history lesson or explain what being opposition spokesperson on finance means-u just dont make personal statements.
Who-did you vote for? Dont be shy or coy. You will no doubt evade that question -your ranting types usually do. Better to rant against every Government than be a grown up :lol:


Last edited by Balanced1970 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:04 pm 
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catbear wrote:
Balanced1970 wrote:
How exactly are FG to blame for this mess they inherited?

Sean Fitzpatrick is probably teeing off right now, maybe if FG grew a pair they might actually see justice done. Where's the bankruptcy reform (not words, action), that would distinguish FG from FF. Otherwise same land based parish pump fare. They define eachother.


Bull. FG are barely in power-what three months? Give them sometime to get bankruptcy law out there. As for Sean F-the real tragedy is 90% of what he did wrong-he prob did perfectly legally. FF vould have easily reigned him in but soft landings blah blah .


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:10 pm 
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Balanced1970 wrote:
catbear wrote:
Balanced1970 wrote:
How exactly are FG to blame for this mess they inherited?

Sean Fitzpatrick is probably teeing off right now, maybe if FG grew a pair they might actually see justice done. Where's the bankruptcy reform (not words, action), that would distinguish FG from FF. Otherwise same land based parish pump fare. They define eachother.


Bull. FG are barely in power-what three months? Give them sometime to get bankruptcy law out there.

I'd really like to see them talking more openly about it and the possible models that could be used. I'd like to see a public debate beforehand and the Dail being presented with options rather than a predetermined piece of legislation. I don't trust the civil service to "do the right thing" anymore, not after NAMA, the blasphemy legislation and a host of other bits and pieces, so I'd like to think there could be public influence on what is coming and not just on the issue of bankruptcy.

We were promised open-ness and unvarished truth. We've had little of either so far.

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So long and thanks for all the fish.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:16 pm 
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yoganmahew wrote:
Balanced1970 wrote:
catbear wrote:
Balanced1970 wrote:
How exactly are FG to blame for this mess they inherited?

Sean Fitzpatrick is probably teeing off right now, maybe if FG grew a pair they might actually see justice done. Where's the bankruptcy reform (not words, action), that would distinguish FG from FF. Otherwise same land based parish pump fare. They define eachother.


Bull. FG are barely in power-what three months? Give them sometime to get bankruptcy law out there.

I'd really like to see them talking more openly about it and the possible models that could be used. I'd like to see a public debate beforehand and the Dail being presented with options rather than a predetermined piece of legislation. I don't trust the civil service to "do the right thing" anymore, not after NAMA, the blasphemy legislation and a host of other bits and pieces, so I'd like to think there could be public influence on what is coming and not just on the issue of bankruptcy.

We were promised open-ness and unvarished truth. We've had little of either so far.


I agree fully with you. My support for FG is not open ended and the appointment of paid chair persons in the dail aint a great step in the right direction given public sector jobs embargo. Simply presenting a bankruptcy law framed by civil servants/business/legal interests aint on. The avg joe must have an input. .The way things are going-many of us will join the bankrupts already out there.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Balanced1970 wrote:
catbear wrote:
Balanced1970 wrote:
How exactly are FG to blame for this mess they inherited?

Sean Fitzpatrick is probably teeing off right now, maybe if FG grew a pair they might actually see justice done. Where's the bankruptcy reform (not words, action), that would distinguish FG from FF. Otherwise same land based parish pump fare. They define eachother.


Bull. FG are barely in power-what three months? Give them sometime to get bankruptcy law out there. As for Sean F-the real tragedy is 90% of what he did wrong-he prob did perfectly legally. FF vould have easily reigned him in but soft landings blah blah .
What catbear wrote is not 'bull' and you're wrong to dismiss it in that way. Do you imagine that FG just fell to earth in the spring time? They supported every action of FF in settling the gambling debts of a small 'elite' on the backs of the tax payer. They opposed nothing. They've known for long enough that they'd form the government, so surely they had a plan of action? Of course they had a plan, but unfortunately there was nothing to it.


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