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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:22 pm 
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We're getting off topic chaps, take it somewhere else if you want to continue. P.ie sounds like a good place for it.

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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:40 pm 
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Life after Lenihan?
I have no love for FF. And I would love to see them go extinct, but alas, that will not happen. I wouldn't be so quick to declare them dead as of yet. I've been surprised at several things in this country over the last few years. Firstly, I would say that I was surprised at the level of the collapse in their support at the last election. I really didn't expect the die-hards to give up on them in such numbers. Mostly though I am constantly amazed at how long this economic collapse is taking.

We are now into our fifth year of this collapse. To date there have been no major cut backs in government spending; no major tax increases; no massive cuts in welfare payments; no significant layoffs of government employees, or banking employees. Yes, I know there have been some increases here, and some cuts there, but nothing like what is necessary to reduce the government spending deficit. All that has happened is a reduction in the increase of government spending.

Eventually, in the next couple of years, the government is going to be forced to do something about the disaster that is government spending and debt. Other people are going to eventually get tired of giving the country money. I just can't imagine that this day of reckoning will be put off for more than another four years. I say four years, because that is when the next election will happen at the latest. When the day comes when people stop giving the country money happens, all support will fade away from the current government. They will be forced to do something drastic to deal with the situation. Then there will be an election some short time after wards. I expect that most of the blame for what is going to have to happen will fall on FG and Labour.

When this happens, I expect FF to come back. People will think, and remember fondly about the good times under FF. "Sure, they made a mess of things, but things weren't ever this bad under FF, and they paid the price already. Time to give them another try." will be the slogan. Think about it? Who else will people vote for. It will either be FF or some other, at present tiny extremest party. The only other option will be a new party. While possible, I don't think it probable that a new party will come into existence and win an election.

We are therefore left with the probable situation of FF back at the next election. It is not like FF haven't bankrupted the country before and recovered.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:44 pm 
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The Curious One wrote:
When this happens, I expect FF to come back. People will think, and remember fondly about the good times under FF. "Sure, they made a mess of things, but things weren't ever this bad under FF, and they paid the price already. Time to give them another try." will be the slogan. Think about it? Who else will people vote for. It will either be FF or some other, at present tiny extremest party. The only other option will be a new party. While possible, I don't think it probable that a new party will come into existence and win an election.

This has the ring of truth about it unfortunately. The best we could hope for is probably some sort of split in Fianna Fail that dumps the most corrupt/gombeenish elements into one group, and whatever ethical people actually exist in the party in another. Can't see that happening either though - FF will probably always be with us. They are only in remission.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:20 pm 
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Posts: 3052
Barney Gumble wrote:
The Curious One wrote:
When this happens, I expect FF to come back. People will think, and remember fondly about the good times under FF. "Sure, they made a mess of things, but things weren't ever this bad under FF, and they paid the price already. Time to give them another try." will be the slogan. Think about it? Who else will people vote for. It will either be FF or some other, at present tiny extremest party. The only other option will be a new party. While possible, I don't think it probable that a new party will come into existence and win an election.

This has the ring of truth about it unfortunately. The best we could hope for is probably some sort of split in Fianna Fail that dumps the most corrupt/gombeenish elements into one group, and whatever ethical people actually exist in the party in another. Can't see that happening either though - FF will probably always be with us. They are only in remission.


I think FF are finished. They'll meet up now and again like FCA reunions from the Emergency.
They'll have the IMF thrown at them on the doorsteps for the next 20 years. And rightly so.
FG and Labour will merge and bring in the SDLP too - you heard it here first :D
Tommy Broughan and Leo Varadkar will be told to f**k off and form their respective own parties. "Fine Labour" will be the new FF - they'll give a new word to "cronyism" to get away with giving their supporters jobs - such as setting up a public register that only their supporters will be put on and from which all crony appointments get filled. It will have an air of transparency but it'll be cronyistic.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:22 am 
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Posts: 84
The Curious One wrote:
Life after Lenihan?
I have no love for FF. And I would love to see them go extinct, but alas, that will not happen. I wouldn't be so quick to declare them dead as of yet. I've been surprised at several things in this country over the last few years. Firstly, I would say that I was surprised at the level of the collapse in their support at the last election. I really didn't expect the die-hards to give up on them in such numbers. Mostly though I am constantly amazed at how long this economic collapse is taking.

We are now into our fifth year of this collapse. To date there have been no major cut backs in government spending; no major tax increases; no massive cuts in welfare payments; no significant layoffs of government employees, or banking employees. Yes, I know there have been some increases here, and some cuts there, but nothing like what is necessary to reduce the government spending deficit. All that has happened is a reduction in the increase of government spending.

Eventually, in the next couple of years, the government is going to be forced to do something about the disaster that is government spending and debt. Other people are going to eventually get tired of giving the country money. I just can't imagine that this day of reckoning will be put off for more than another four years. I say four years, because that is when the next election will happen at the latest. When the day comes when people stop giving the country money happens, all support will fade away from the current government. They will be forced to do something drastic to deal with the situation. Then there will be an election some short time after wards. I expect that most of the blame for what is going to have to happen will fall on FG and Labour.

When this happens, I expect FF to come back. People will think, and remember fondly about the good times under FF. "Sure, they made a mess of things, but things weren't ever this bad under FF, and they paid the price already. Time to give them another try." will be the slogan. Think about it? Who else will people vote for. It will either be FF or some other, at present tiny extremest party. The only other option will be a new party. While possible, I don't think it probable that a new party will come into existence and win an election.

We are therefore left with the probable situation of FF back at the next election. It is not like FF haven't bankrupted the country before and recovered.

This is pure delusion. No major tax increases? No Pay cuts? No cut backs? We have much more to come but to say nothing has happened is cloud cuckoo land. There has been at least 10 billion sucked out of the economy.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:29 am 
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Coles2 wrote:
Balanced1970 wrote:
catbear wrote:
Balanced1970 wrote:
How exactly are FG to blame for this mess they inherited?

Sean Fitzpatrick is probably teeing off right now, maybe if FG grew a pair they might actually see justice done. Where's the bankruptcy reform (not words, action), that would distinguish FG from FF. Otherwise same land based parish pump fare. They define eachother.


Bull. FG are barely in power-what three months? Give them sometime to get bankruptcy law out there. As for Sean F-the real tragedy is 90% of what he did wrong-he prob did perfectly legally. FF vould have easily reigned him in but soft landings blah blah .
What catbear wrote is not 'bull' and you're wrong to dismiss it in that way. Do you imagine that FG just fell to earth in the spring time? They supported every action of FF in settling the gambling debts of a small 'elite' on the backs of the tax payer. They opposed nothing. They've known for long enough that they'd form the government, so surely they had a plan of action? Of course they had a plan, but unfortunately there was nothing to it.



Fg did support the bank guarantee but they had had not been in charge of the banks and were fool ed into believing what the regulator said. FF Had access to the books-we didnt.As to your cry for a plan-there is one. Reduce the interest rate and burn the bond holders but these will take time. When i say time-i mean a few months max. Did you think the EU/GERMANS WERE GOING TO ROLL OVER JUST BECAUSE WE HAD A NEW GOVERNMENT OR JUST BECAUSE WE HAD RIGHT ON OUR SIDE? sorry-forgot to switch off caps locks.

We are depending on EU to pay our lighting bills at the moment-we cant just walk away from these debts.IF we do we must find 18 billion in one year. This may yet happen.The bank guarantee should not have been so open ended but we had to have some guarantee otherwise total collapse and you know it.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:01 am 
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Joined: Apr 4, 2010
Posts: 4651
BlameGame wrote:
Barney Gumble wrote:
The Curious One wrote:
When this happens, I expect FF to come back. People will think, and remember fondly about the good times under FF. "Sure, they made a mess of things, but things weren't ever this bad under FF, and they paid the price already. Time to give them another try." will be the slogan. Think about it? Who else will people vote for. It will either be FF or some other, at present tiny extremest party. The only other option will be a new party. While possible, I don't think it probable that a new party will come into existence and win an election.

This has the ring of truth about it unfortunately. The best we could hope for is probably some sort of split in Fianna Fail that dumps the most corrupt/gombeenish elements into one group, and whatever ethical people actually exist in the party in another. Can't see that happening either though - FF will probably always be with us. They are only in remission.


I think FF are finished. They'll meet up now and again like FCA reunions from the Emergency.
They'll have the IMF thrown at them on the doorsteps for the next 20 years. And rightly so.
FG and Labour will merge and bring in the SDLP too - you heard it here first :D
Tommy Broughan and Leo Varadkar will be told to f**k off and form their respective own parties. "Fine Labour" will be the new FF - they'll give a new word to "cronyism" to get away with giving their supporters jobs - such as setting up a public register that only their supporters will be put on and from which all crony appointments get filled. It will have an air of transparency but it'll be cronyistic.



Why am I geting visions of pigs? :lol:
(And I'm thinking George Orwell, not The Welcome Guest...)

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People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.


Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations
Book I, Chapter X, Part II,


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:10 am 
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Posts: 6128
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Balanced1970 wrote:
Its a bit of a leap to jump from saying manifestos are to be taken with a large pinch of salt to stating I said our democracy is nonsense. Where did I say that? You make me laugh asking about a mandate for current action! We have an 18 billion deficit and live off the kindness of strangers-separate from any banking crisis. Whoever is in power-even your left wing buddies would cut severely.
The people whom you seem to disdain-voted FG the biggest party in Ireland. by a mile/ Do you deny that? It will take time to burn the bondholders. As for re-running the treaty -where in any definition of democracy does it say you cant ask an electorate something twice? Where in our constitution does it say that?

There is a fundamental difference between FG and FF-we never fucked up IRELAND. FF did it three times-1930s.1977 and 1997 onwards. We are the party of steady integrity at national level anyway. I dont know enough about local Government to say how bad Fg were at local level.

We always clean up FF's mess. Richard Bruton was FG spokesperson on finance and when he spoke he spoke for FG. Benchmarking was also opposed by FG. I really dont have time to give you a history lesson or explain what being opposition spokesperson on finance means-u just dont make personal statements.
Who-did you vote for? Dont be shy or coy. You will no doubt evade that question -your ranting types usually do. Better to rant against every Government than be a grown up :lol:


It was "grown-up" types who landed us exactly where we are at present.

FG have kept "the only show in town" firmly on the road. The Peter Sutherlands and John Brutons of this world have played a very substantial role in ensuring that "we are where we are" and will be for the next 20/30 years

My point re the lack of democracy on display is pretty self-evident. If somebody tells you that they will do something if you vote for them, you tend to expect them to stick to their promise do you not, unless events subsequently overtake them. The first 100 days of any administration is when the tone tends to be set as events rarely have the chance to overtake at that early stage. Inda and co have simply taken over the FF baton and carried on exactly where they left off. Noonan is reading what used to be Lenny's lines out live on radio.

As for your history lessons, when did FG clean anything up in the 1930s? Their previous incarnation was in power in the 20s which was a disaster, effectively paving the way for the the rise of Dev's FF (a bigger disaster) and subsequently spent the much of 30s either "marching on Dublin" with their arms extended in front of them or heading off to Spain to lend a hand to Franco. They also spent as much time grovelling at the feet of the Catholic Hierarchy as FF ever did. All you lot ever wanted was what FF provided except with your slightly more respectable mugs on the cover.

You say FG never fucked up Ireland. I say that without you, FF would never have existed, or at the very least would never have lasted as long as they did.

Stephen Brennan to FF's Dinny Byrne...

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― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


Last edited by Poacher turned gamekeeper on Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:51 am 
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This could go on and on. FG did not screw up in the 1920s. It just didnt play politics that effectively. I suppose winning the civil war against people who were not accepting the democratic will of the people was not an achievement.

As to the 1930s-FF were in Government then not FG as you imply-you obviously dont come from an agricultural background-ask any farmer how it took 30 years to recover the price drops/income drops created by the economic war which FF created.The blue shirts were set up to counter the attacks of IRA people against democratic meetings-they were not fascist at heart and were gone as a force by 1935.

What about the FF government 1977-81?
I take your point that FG failed to provide effective opposition or grab the imagination of the electorate but you cant absolve the electorate of any responsibility . They were adults and made terrible choices in 1977 and 2002 in particular. But surely other people could have come forward to form a new effective opposition party-your forefathers perhaps?!! Or did they also just attack everyone?

I also take your point about the first 100 days and as stated Im no die in the wool FG er. If by the autumn they have not confronted the EU-I will no longer support them but its a tricky position. We cant afford to make 18 billion cuts in one year as we would have to do if cut off from EU/IMF funding.

Labour-your party also failed to create a large scale left wing party. If Labour is not your party-who is. I know your tiresome types-rant against everyone and I mean everyone but never own up to being an adult political voter by stating a preference and opening it up to scrutiny-much much easier to just throw the toys out of the pram and attack everyone else.

WHO DID U VOTE FOR?????????????????
bets are you wont answer and instead attack FG. Yawn. :roll: :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:04 pm 
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It would be instructive - to you and this discussion - to spend some time reading PtG's posts before you get personal (not allowed) and draw (inaccurate) conclusions about his 'type.'

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“The only calibration that counts is how much heart people invest, how much they ignore their fears of being hurt or caught out or humiliated. And the only thing people regret is that they didn't live boldly enough, that they didn't invest enough heart, didn't love enough. Nothing else really counts at all.” Ted Hughes

“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.” Anais Nin


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:06 pm 
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Quote:
There is a fundamental difference between FG and FF-we never fucked up IRELAND. FF did it three times-1930s.1977 and 1997 onwards.


You'd swear it was a football game with this "we" shite. Like a Liverpool supporter banging on about all the European cups they've won before he was even born.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:34 pm 
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Kate P wrote:
It would be instructive - to you and this discussion - to spend some time reading PtG's posts before you get personal (not allowed) and draw (inaccurate) conclusions about his 'type.'


I rarely agree with PtG but he/she/it deserves as much respect as anyone on here, I detect an anarchist tone (the proper kind who know what it means rather than the media version) through his/her/its contributions and find it refreshing (I may be wrong). I'm all for Anarchy myself despite my defense of FG for now. I just worry about who'd survive the transition and don't think the Irish are ready for the kind of responsibility that it would require. Steady as she goes until we are.


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:41 pm 
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goldmanberg wrote:

I rarely agree with PtG but he/she/it deserves as much respect as anyone on here, I detect an anarchist tone (the proper kind who know what it means rather than the media version) through his/her/its contributions and find it refreshing (I may be wrong). I'm all for Anarchy myself despite my defense of FG for now. I just worry about who'd survive the transition and don't think the Irish are ready for the kind of responsibility that it would require. Steady as she goes until we are.


Are we ever ready?

I don't think I can bear any more 'steady as she goes' though at the same time, I share your concerns about who would survive.

Are we ever ready? When is the good time to start again, from scratch - to create ourselves again? For me, that's what it has to be about - an end to the old rules and the construction of new rules that work and are real.

_________________
“The only calibration that counts is how much heart people invest, how much they ignore their fears of being hurt or caught out or humiliated. And the only thing people regret is that they didn't live boldly enough, that they didn't invest enough heart, didn't love enough. Nothing else really counts at all.” Ted Hughes

“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.” Anais Nin


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:55 pm 
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Of Systemic Importance

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Balanced1970 wrote:
This could go on and on. FG did not screw up in the 1920s. It just didnt play politics that effectively. I suppose winning the civil war against people who were not accepting the democratic will of the people was not an achievement.

As to the 1930s-FF were in Government then not FG as you imply-you obviously dont come from an agricultural background-ask any farmer how it took 30 years to recover the price drops/income drops created by the economic war which FF created.The blue shirts were set up to counter the attacks of IRA people against democratic meetings-they were not fascist at heart and were gone as a force by 1935.

What about the FF government 1977-81?
I take your point that FG failed to provide effective opposition or grab the imagination of the electorate but you cant absolve the electorate of any responsibility . They were adults and made terrible choices in 1977 and 2002 in particular. But surely other people could have come forward to form a new effective opposition party-your forefathers perhaps?!! Or did they also just attack everyone?

I also take your point about the first 100 days and as stated Im no die in the wool FG er. If by the autumn they have not confronted the EU-I will no longer support them but its a tricky position. We cant afford to make 18 billion cuts in one year as we would have to do if cut off from EU/IMF funding.

Labour-your party also failed to create a large scale left wing party. If Labour is not your party-who is. I know your tiresome types-rant against everyone and I mean everyone but never own up to being an adult political voter by stating a preference and opening it up to scrutiny-much much easier to just throw the toys out of the pram and attack everyone else.

WHO DID U VOTE FOR?????????????????
bets are you wont answer and instead attack FG. Yawn. :roll: :roll:


I voted for independents ie "the looneys"...so yes Im a looney and may be written off by respectable grown-ups such as yourself on that basis. Only problem with that approach is that its very much a pre 2008 analysis because as far as Im concerned "the looneys" have been shown to have been the ones at the very heart of the establishment, right across the spectrum.

My reference to FG's role in the 1930s was made only in response to your contention that FG had saved the country during that particular period. You now state that they were not in power at that point and that my statement is false as a result. Which is it so? They either saved Ireland at that point, as a result of which they obviously share much of the blame for the society which they subsequently created or they didnt?

As for the Blueshirts, your contention is again without basis IMO and is obviously seeking to whitewash a shameful period in the organisation's development. The Blueshirts came into existence to counter the DeValera Government whom they felt was quite "Communist"!!!!! In other words, Cumann na Gaedhel/FG/Blueshirts were so far to the right that they viewed Archbishop McQuaid's champion as a commie! Although it tends to be pretty much glossed over nowadays due to it not fitting the latterly accepted, redrawn political narrative, the greatest threat to the existence of the Free State as it was during the 30s were the Blueshirts - not the IRA - although the IRA obviously were "at it" during the same period. This was a very murky period which FG people understandably dont want to revisit in any real detail. Indeed, you could argue that the Civil War only really ended when many of the protagonists on both sides Blueshirt/IRA headed off to Spain - as you say cerca 1935/36.

Plus your comment about people not "accepting the democratic will of the people" is laughable given your ridiculing of my highlighting of FGs place at the vanguard of Lisbon II.

The difference that you'll find between this site and others is that most here (not all) dont have obviously aligned political agendas. On that basis, they tend not to fall easily into the categories which apply in the "grown-up" world where people operate to numbers and play the game. In other words if somebody criticises a political party, it does not necessarily mean that they are batting on behalf of anyone else. It may just be a genuinely held opinion borne of frustration or whatever else.

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― George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia


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 Post subject: Re: FF - Life After Lenihan
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:02 pm 
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Kate P wrote:
I don't think I can bear any more 'steady as she goes' though at the same time, I share your concerns about who would survive.

Are we ever ready? When is the good time to start again, from scratch - to create ourselves again? For me, that's what it has to be about - an end to the old rules and the construction of new rules that work and are real.


We aren't ready for an end to the old rules. There is little appetite for that here from what I can see. The difficulty is that our problems don't stem from a horrific war or brutal repression, they stem from a time when we were on top of the world. If we hit the reset button the overwhelming clamour will be to 'get things back to the way they were'. There would be no focus on starting from scratch IMO. And the very people you'd hope to dis-empower would exploit it.


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