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 Post subject: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:19 pm 
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Does anyone have an insight into what is happening with the Shell refinery in Mayo?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0910/corrib.html

Apparently, there is a naval gunship there and a grandmother is on hunger strike. Ireland, 2008. :shock:

I can't believe it is impossible to develop gas fields off west coast without having to beat the locals into submission.

What made them so upset?

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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:11 pm 
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Judging by the statement she issued its not for any personal reason or even some kind of stated environmental tree hugging reason, she seems concerend with the financial arrangements which surrounded the whole transaction, in which the state sold rights to our national gas resource to a private concern.

"I hope people will ask "Why has Shell's Corrib Project come to this - isn't it great 'progress' to have our own gas?". It's NOT 'our' gas. Corrib Gas belongs to Shell. Shell's shareholders get the benefits. Irish people will pay the same price increase for Corrib as any other gas; Corrib and all other oil/gas fields with a value of at least €400 BILLION will not build any new schools or provide any more hospital beds because they were given away by Ray Burke and Bertie Ahern. I am prepared to die to get this message out. What are you prepared to do?" Maura Harrington - 10th Sep. 2008Although Im incredulous at the thought that Bertie Fell and fall and the rest of the primary school teachers (on leave of abscence) who run this country didnt strike the best deal possible for the state.

I think her stand is admirable, tree hugging or not, and in my opinion it is in the spirit of many historic and grand acts of patriotism, nationality and sense of community .

On a deeper level and in some ways related to TPP your coments say alot about the Irish psyche,
As its evident from them that the onus is still on the isolated activist or lonely voice of reason to prove beyond reasonble doubt as to what their stated opposition is to a project 'in the National interest' , whereas people will still accept out of hand the expensive spin this sinister and spineless govt puts on its questionable actions. Evidently the masses have leared nothing, and would no dout re-elect this same Govt if given the chance, oh hang on they did.

Mundus vult decepti, ergo decipiatur. (man wans to be decieved therefore let him be decieved)

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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:15 pm 
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bungaloid wrote:
Does anyone have an insight into what is happening with the Shell refinery in Mayo?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0910/corrib.html

Apparently, there is a naval gunship there and a grandmother is on hunger strike. Ireland, 2008. :shock:

I can't believe it is impossible to develop gas fields off west coast without having to beat the locals into submission.

What made them so upset?

Most of them aren't locals, most are professional campaigners who are from other parts of the country. Plenty of locals want it and are brow beaten by others. Most of the campaigns claims are completely 'bad science' but that's not surprising given the general level of 'bad science' in the media.


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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:20 pm 
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tell me how its easier to blockade shell than it is to block up the Dail?
The damage is done, we sold it all to Shell, if we go back on the arrangement then others will not be enticed to come into the country.

Its not Shell its the Govt these people should be willing to "die" to get the message out about.
Shell are clearly a private company out to make money its the goddamn Government who are supposed to look after the people.

The sooner people realise that democracy is a two way thing the better.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:20 pm 
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Bostonorberlin wrote:
[b]"I hope people will ask "Why has Shell's Corrib Project come to this - isn't it great 'progress' to have our own gas?". It's NOT 'our' gas. Corrib Gas belongs to Shell. Shell's shareholders get the benefits. Irish people will pay the same price increase for Corrib as any other gas; Corrib and all other oil/gas fields with a value of at least €400 BILLION will not build any new schools or provide any more hospital beds because they were given away by Ray Burke and Bertie Ahern. I am prepared to die to get this message out. What are you prepared to do?" Maura Harrington - 10th Sep. 2008.

Maybe Shell should be taxed more or something I don't really have an opinion but its completely erroneous to suggest there are no benefits. Clearly there is an economic benefit, local employment, expenditure on materials to build the facilities etc. And having gas coming from a local source is clearly beneficial, it would mean we'd be less reliant on foreign energy sources. We're so vulnerable at the moment it's not even funny.


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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:33 pm 
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How much did we sell these rights to Shell for?

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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:44 pm 
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Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
tell me how its easier to blockade shell than it is to block up the Dail?


Indeed.

I believe it's only a matter of time before people take to the streets over the state of the economy.

I hope it'll come from the middle class commuters, parents groups, students and health service protesters and not the usual suspects: "poor" farmers, taxi drivers and "disadvantaged" BMW region types.

My opinion on Shell is: I'm with the local landowners who don't want these pipes under their land. I also think the gubberment sold off the exploration licences for a song (under dubious circumstances I might add). So Shell can feck off AFAIC until they come up with a better set of terms: financial, environmental and with proper regard to the landowners with high-pressure pipes forced under their property.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:47 pm 
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I hang my head, I hang my head....

These people are real. Their concerns are real.

This is our concern.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:01 pm 
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While I agree with the Rossport 5 on their protest against the ultra high pressure pipeline near their homes and which can rupture explosively I fear that much of whats happening up there is rentamob stuff .

Increasing the bore of the pipe on land by splitting it through an offshore valved and programmed manifold into 3 much lower pressure pipelines with onshore route diversity would have fixed that .

We had no choice but to 'give' Enterprise ( now Shell) the terms we gave them . At that time in those circumstances .

We cannot renege on that now .

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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:05 pm 
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CelloPoint wrote:
Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
tell me how its easier to blockade shell than it is to block up the Dail?


Indeed.

I believe it's only a matter of time before people take to the streets over the state of the economy.

I hope it'll come from the middle class commuters, parents groups, students and health service protesters and not the usual suspects: "poor" farmers, taxi drivers and "disadvantaged" BMW region types.

My opinion on Shell is: I'm with the local landowners who don't want these pipes under their land. I also think the gubberment sold off the exploration licences for a song (under dubious circumstances I might add). So Shell can feck off AFAIC until they come up with a better set of terms: financial, environmental and with proper regard to the landowners with high-pressure pipes forced under their property.


I too hope they protest but I dont know if it will happen, did anythin like it happen in the 80s? I was too young to know.

RE renegotiating the deal I think is very bad, think about how potential investment in Ireland will see it!
The time has gone for that in my sincere opinion and yes it was wrong but its too late to go back. We need to learn from our mistakes of allowing those in power to get away unchecked.

This is possible, just look at the current opposition, clowns - they would embarrass a circus.
Ive read many many better informed posts on the damn interwebs. The brains are out there to turn this all around and go forward. Go forward not back.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:27 pm 
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2Pack wrote:
While I agree with the Rossport 5 on their protest against the ultra high pressure pipeline near their homes and which can rupture explosively I fear that much of whats happening up there is rentamob stuff . .

The pipeline is not 'ultra high pressure' by any means. The whole S2S lot are a mixture of good old NIMBYs (with most locals supporting the work apparently) and bus loads of professional protestors with dubious political affiliations. Maura Harrington is a complete nutjob - just ask the local parents who are trying have her removed from their school or the local courts where she is regularly up for drunk and disorderly....


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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:38 pm 
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Blindjustice BATONEFFECT wrote:
We need to learn from our mistakes of allowing those in power to get away unchecked.

Who is the we? "We" have no fucking control in this banana republic. The stupid cunts in government certainly aren't going to learn anything. We need to renegotiate, full stop.

How can we help those protestors?

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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:44 pm 
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The pipeline is ultra high pressure for non odourised gas on land near people .

It will run at twice anything Bord Gáis would pressurise at and is odourless to boot .

Had they split it in three underwater in the shallow bay like I said they could have dramatically lowered the pressure and the risk for the last 2 or 3 miles.

Frankly the processing plant should be out on the north coast or in Kilalla where Asahi was and then it would be a complete non issue .

I am not in agreement with very much of the rest of whats going on but if that particular pipeline were on my land it could find itself decommissioned regularly and with extreme prejudice :(

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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:44 pm 
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It looks like I have to take a completely opposing view to BostonorBerlin and Ms Harrington.

The deal the Irish State did with Shell is no different than what both ourselves and our neighbours in Holland, Norway and the UK have been doing for years. The only difference is that since the 1970s (Kinsale gas field) this is the first commercial gas discovery on the Irish Continental shelf.
The continental shelf of each country is divided up into blocks which are each given numbers. Oil companies then bid on the rights to drill in a block. The block will be leased to the oil company for a stated number of years and yes they will earn revenue for bringing any hydrocarbons found to market. The state will then tax the revenue in a number of ways but usually this is done by royalties of a fixed percentage of revenue for each BOE (barrel of oil equivalent) produced. The tax rate of the royalties is stated in the terms of conditions set by the government prior to any oil company taking out a lease on a block.

In Ireland we've one of the worst strike rates for finding hydrocarbons of anywhere in the planet. (3% but I need to find the link for this) Here is some useful comparisons with our neighbours in Norway and the UK

Quote:
The Irish offshore industry is repeatedly compared to its Norwegian and UK counterparts. More often than not, this comparison focuses on the fiscal terms offered to companies carrying out exploration and development in these countries. This comparison is wholly inappropriate.

Exploration in Norway commenced at about the same time as in Ireland. Since then the Norwegian industry has drilled 1,200 exploration and appraisal wells. The UK industry has drilled 4,211 exploration and appraisal wells and currently has 350 producing oil and gas fields.

At the same time, Ireland has drilled only 155 exploration and appraisal wells and only has three producing gas fields with the fourth, Corrib, under development.

Norway is also seen as particularly attractive for exploration given the large average size of the fields discovered, approximately three times the size of the average in Ireland. Norway’s production to date plus proven reserves is 114 times greater than Ireland’s. UK production to date and proven reserves is 99 times greater than Ireland’s.

These enormous natural advantages enable Norway and the United Kingdom to impose tough fiscal terms on offshore explorers and make any comparison between terms offered in Ireland and the other two countries entirely inappropriate. The attractiveness of Norway and the United Kingdom, despite their relatively onerous fiscal terms, is emphasised by the number of applicationsfor exploration licences. For instance, the 24th Licensing Round (2006) in the UK attracted 147 applications from 121 companies. A comparable round in Ireland resulted in the award of 4 licences.

The appropriate comparison would be with other countries of relatively low prospectivity, such as France, Spain and Portugal, which have similarly low levels of activity to Ireland.
Norway is the third largest exporter of crude oil in the world and currently has 49 producing oil and gas fields with a further five fields under development. Another 13 fields have ceased production. The UK has over 300 producing oil and gas fields with 18 fields under development. Ireland has only three producing gas fields, one gas field under development and no commercial oil discoveries to date. These stark differences make comparisons between Ireland and the other two countries, and the fiscal terms they impose on exploration companies, entirely inappropriate.
Source: UKOOA, the Petroleum Affairs Division and the Norwegian Petroleum Directorate (Faktaheftet om norsk petroleum verksemd for 2005).


http://www.iooa.ie/securing-the-future-page41390.html


So, if you have lots of oil and gas already discovered on your continental shelf you can impose higher taxes/tariffs on the Oil companies producing oil and gas.
Because of the low success rate on the Irish continental shelf we must be very generous on the low taxes that we would charge so as to attract oil companies to drill in our waters.

It would seem that just as Shell is about to make a return on their massive investment on the Corrib project we have people in this country deciding that they should not have it, almost that we always knew that it was there and our government still decided to "give it away". This is nonsense. Do these people realise the massive cost today for exploring for oil and gas. An average exploration well in deep water such as off the coast of Mayo and Donegal where Shell is drilling is now costing at least $100 million.

I'm all for our government setting up an Irish National oil company to explore for oil and gas off of Ireland but I do not think that the Irish tax payer is willing to stump up the cost of maybe $1 Billion to go on a 10 well drilling programme with a success rate of perhaps 5%. And that cost would only be for drilling the wells. Not for building the offshore platforms, pipelines, onshore refineries. So perhaps double that price again.
How many hospitals, schools and roads are the Irish people willing to forfeit so that we can explore for oil and gas.
It seems we want to go down the path of just confiscating it from the companies who are willing to take the chance of finding it. This is outrageous.

I have no beef with people campaigning on whether Shell are doing a safe and environmentally friendly job of bringing the Corrib gas to shore but nationalising our tiny offshore reserves is economic suicide. Welcome to Communist Ireland.

For the record I work for a major Oil and Gas company but not Shell. The company I work for has no commercial interest in Corrib or any other project on the Irish Continental shelf.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayo
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:46 pm 
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Can anyone explain why S2S have changed the reason for their protest from health/safety grounds to economic grounds? do they think they will get more sympathy/attention now that the economy is in trouble?

As others have mentioned earlier there definitely is a large rent-a-mob element to the protest, along with the NIMBYs and a lot of locals are quite happy with having such a large employer on their doorsteps

As for the school teacher, she really is setting a great example for her students.....


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