Some killer comebacks there
- "He got a mortgage which hasn't been paid" -
"But the bank got paid for it" - "SECURITISATION!"

Did Pat Kenny decide to humiliate this clowns or go with the populist 'evict-nobody-ever' rubbish? If Kenny didn't destroy them, get these freedom loving loons on Vincent Browne and let him have a go.

Funny how Browne and Kenny are from opposite sides of the ideological spectrum yet seem IMHO to be amongst the very few broadcasters capable of seeing through this class of pseudo-legalese guff. Most of them, including the guy from the Laois sheriff's office perhaps, tend to think "Sh*t, I don't know the constitution and this chap sounds like he knows what he's talking about so I better not challenge his spiel..."

Edit: p.s. this continues to gain traction on the world wide interweb

PK stuck to the safer ground of the constitution (specifically article 40.5, "The dwelling of every citizen is inviolable and shall not be forcibly entered save in accordance with law"), discussing in what sense the home is 'inviolable'. Mr Gilroy was just starting into the pseudo-legalese when the item was wrapped up - it was kept very short for some reason.

A few weeks back, PK briefly talked about that Freeman script that did the rounds of all the forums, claiming that there was no need to pay the household charge as it was based on 'statute law' - he basically just read it out and performed some sort of verbal shrug. A day or two later he had an actual solicitor (Bracken?) on to comment on it, and the latter torpedoed it pretty quickly.

Oh Dear, Mr Gilroy would appear to be Ireland's most ill-informed constitutional law expert, he has however managed to gather a willing bunch of fuckwits to appoint him their leader on the basis that he has wasted several hours (days/weeks maybe) of his life reading the constitution and applying his own unique interpretation on it - its like the bible - you can find whatever you want to find in it. His assertation that the courts were a "commercial entity" is odd given that they are provided for under his beloved constitution and established under statute. On a pyschological level Mr Gilroy appears to be an angryish man with an enormous chip on his shoulder, he adheres to the school of thought that if you say your piece louder and more often than your adversary you win. You can tell he gets enormous pleasure (verging on sexual I'd say) from his position as the one eyed King in the valley of the blind (deaf and dumb).

Again, your own prejudices are preventing you from seeing.
It doesnt matter whether its nonsense or fact. It matters whether or not people believe it.

Some people thought it mad that women should be allowed to vote and others thought it normal that apartheid should exist in South Africa.
Neither was reversed until action was taken, within a political grouping and philosophical framework.
So wise up, it doesnt matter a fuck what you think; it matters what they think. And what they do.


No shit sherlock.
Havent you read the other thread?
Theres a real danger that this movement could be hijacked by the hard-right neo-fascist crowd.
Meanwhile middle class Pinsters think they can prevent this with nothing more than a sneery attitude.
Didnt work for the property bubble, did it?




Do I detect a bit of that in your own posts, Alejandro?
Still, good to know we have a qualified psychologist posting, welcome.

Well how fortunate we are to have a man like yourself, totally free of prejudice, to show us the truth.

Yes, as I think I made quite clear in the post you quoted but somehow didn't seem to take in:

Incidentally, I scanned the previous threads on the subject and didn't see anybody accusing you of being a 'moron', or anything of the sort. jcsmith did however point out some holes in Freeman logic and describe it as nonsense, which you did not seem to like very much.

Do I detect a bit of that in your own posts, Alejandro?
Still, good to know we have a qualified psychologist posting, welcome.[/quote]


Just a tiny bit, I'd never have the enthusiasm he has though, I'd need to be seriously stuck for shit to do to drive down to Laois, stand in someone's front garden for the day and talk absolute poney over a wall to the Sherriff's gimp.

freeman stuff is akin to the IRA in the 70s and 80s refusing to recognise the UK courts. They were still jailed.

The freeman argument is effectively that legislation is the same as a contract and if you refuse to consent the legislation does not govern you.

It is dangerous for these people to be given airtime as there will be gullible listeners/viewers who will be taken in by this and end up in a situation where they have not properly prepared for or defended their case on the basis that they have a "trump card" to play. They will then end up being convicted of an offence or in contempt of court or lose their homes where if they took proper legal advice they may have found a legal loophole or something that would help their situation

Freeman is rather like the Tea Party in that it sees a struggle between the ordinary endebted working man on one hand and a force of evil on the other, in this case the banks and the government. The differences in narrative are down to the naturally more right-wing bent of the US over Ireland but ultimately it is the same; on the side of good we have overborrowed hard working middle class families, on the side of evil we have the rich, the poor, the companies, the government, pretty much everything else.

What is surprising about the debt transfer (it is not forgiven, someone pays) meme is that it has taken in the ULA and other left wing forces. Don't they realise that they are playing right into the hands of landlords, farmers, builders etc., all the same gombeens who made millions on the way up and now have huge debts left on their properties? Do the left really want a transfer of this debt to the exchequer which will mostly hurt the poor, old etc, supposedly the people they are sworn to protect? Do they care or are they just Bertie 'socialists'?

Its a good school to belong to. I read a piece years ago about how if you say something loud enough and often enough and shout down any attempts at reason by an opponent you'll usually win.

I believe this strategy is predicated on the total idiocy of crowds - so you can see how that would work

My mother, the ultra responsible, pay every bill on time, obey every law "because its the law" has been convinced by people in her workplace that she doesnt have to pay the household charge because of this stuff. if these freeman dont want any contract with the state that exists and is backed by vast majority of people residing here they can report to nearest airport/port for deportation to a land of their chosing where they can decide on any or no form of government. Somalia is nice this time of year and no pesky government there.

i think this thread is completely missing the point. Some people are starting to wake up and saying they dont want any more vaseline. After a helluva llot of waffle in that video the fact is somebody stood up for a change. That is not something that Irish people are good at just look at enda in europe. Rather than meekly bowing down before the sheriff that guy spewed a lot of bull and the sheriff left. If this marks the beginning of people questioning whats going on all the better.

And how did that work out; they just disappeared, did they?
Problem solved, was it?

What most dont want to hear is that there is some overlap between the freemen (or any social/political movement) and the nay-sayers and scoffers: both think ignoring something, or deriding it, will just make it go away. But it wont. It never has.
The only way to defeat this thing is to engage it.



Now this is what I'm talking about.
How many more stories are we going to hear like this before people cop on to what they're seeing?
This approach validates grievances, it listens to your problems and it provides a framework - however wrongheaded you think it is - for expression of said fears and woes. Something that was missing (or not needed) when the going was easy.


Theres not much between the hard-left and hard-right when it comes down to it. "Gutters on either side of the road" was how someone once described it.

This plays out one way. The same way all the other movements went; Like Greece is experiencing now.
Pressure builds and a confrontation takes place.
At this point the state either acceeds to the demands (negating its authority in the process) or it moves to destroy or dismantle the movement forcibly.
Option 1 results in wholesale reform of the state and its laws, slowly and peaceably.
Option 2 results in people like bearishbulls mother getting teargassed or dragged away by Guards on the 6 O'Clock news.
All it will take then is a photo of some fathead cop waving a baton with a crying child in the background or some stasi-like row of riot cops evicting a pensioner.

When this happens, and its likely it will happen at some point, the movement will become legitimised and everyone will support it.
If it is staffed and run by lefties or little Irelanders they will suddenly be holding enormous political power.

This movement is symptomatic of the pressures building in Ireland and Western Europe generally. It is not the cause.

EDIT - I just noticed a thread on this on P.ie with some photos. Its two days old at this stage.
As I predicted (I hadnt seen it at the time I wrote) they are holding what appears to be a Fenian or Land League flag - the association with historical 'justice'.

The Genie is out of the bottle now and the coffee-wafflers on the Pin will do little but tut-tut and tell everyone else how they are, like, soooo wrong.
Perhaps you can all sneer together and it'll just disappear?
Altogether now......

Or, more likely, it will fizzle out by itself. The fact that it has taken so long to gain so little traction may indicate that there is some aspect of the Freeman phenomenon that is preventing it going mainstream - its patent lack of success when put to the test, perhaps. That man's house will be repossessed the next time the sheriff rides into town (presumably after a bollocking from his boss).

It will be interesting to revisit this again in a year or two and see has your predicted revolution occurred - it hasn't since you first suggested it might 2 years ago:



I have to say though, there is a certain irony when someone sneers at other people for perceived 'sneering'.

@Needle: you are very quick to say that everybody in the pin sneers at the Freeman movement and I'm a big sick of your trying to tell me that I am dismissive of it. I don't "sneer" at it. I think their logic is illogical. I think their goals are very unfair on the middle class who will pay for it if it works out they way they hope. And for the record I think it might work out the way they want it. And if it does that will make me very angy - because for all their talk about stuff being unfair making me pay for the bad decisions of others is what is unfair in my book.

But I don't sneer at it.

In fact I fear that they may get their way. Because I don't want to pay for the bad decisions of others. I'm already paying for the bad decisions of Anglo and the two Brians and so many more. I'd prefer for the freemen to pay for their own bad decisions. If they can't afford their houses then I don't want to pay for them too. Because I'd much prefer to be able to pay for a house of my own instead of helping somebody else to buy a house they over-paid for.