I think you know what it is. London is but one example

I think I know but I am not totally sure. So again what is your exact point beyond boredom?

Normally, I would agree with this.

The main problem Ireland has is that people, by and large,think their tax euros disapear into a black hole. In other European countries there seems to be a greater appreciation of the social contract and the requirement on the individual to contribute toward the greater good accoring to their means.

But the situation now is different; people it seems to me are not objecting to a property tax, they are objecting to a property tax set against the fundamental lack of fairness of subsuming the bank debt into that of the sovereign. And the fact that the bastards responsible for the crash are all free as birds with fat pensions to boot.

I really believe that while there would have been some opposition, just like the bin tax, if the government had attempted to impose a property tax in 05 or 06 it would have gone through with minimal fuss.

Isn't the whole problem that this civic responsibility is lacking in a lot of the population? Isn't it this that's also responsible for littering, illegal dumping, stroke-pulling, ringing the TD, tax avoidance etc. etc.?

Obviously it's not the only reason for the resistance to the tax, but maybe it's an underlying one, whether or not you think it's a legacy of colonialism.

Yeah, I totally agree. It is.

The fact that the people at the top have been some of the biggest offenders (FF writ large) has directly contributed to this sorry state of affairs.

The issue of political corruption is not if it happens its what happens to those who are corrupt once they are discovered. In Ireland the answer is fuck all. Corrosive stuff.

Given prior experience with the Residential Property Tax, water charges, bin charges etc I can't share your optimism. I argued for a property tax long before the bubble burst as I felt it would dampen speculation, encourage trading down and efficient use of land but anyoe I discussed it with was agahst. People feel they've paid for their house so that's different, never mind the high percentage of people who dodge income tax.

The high percentage of apartment owners who don't pay their service charge is very telling. My solicitor refused to act for clients buying in certain complexes because the cos were bust.

What I dont get is why this is a tax on the property owner if it is for services? Surley, the user of the services, be they owner or tennant should pay this tax?

The charge is legally required to be paid by the property owner, to the LA ; What use it is put to is irrelevant. Now, if there was something in the law about it being required to fund certain services, then you might be onto something; but there isn't.


All tax revenue must go into a common pool ( that bit's in the constitution ) but this isn't a tax.

Are you saying the owner of the property does not benefit from the local services?

I think most renters would shop around to rent in 'nicer' areas when possible. If councils neglect an area then the property suffers, the resale value drops and its desirability as a rental drops. Any landlord that wants to pass a 100% of this charge onto the tennant is taking a very short sighted view, particularly as the tennant can walk away if the services in the area decline.

this is a tax to help meet the difference between the governments expenditure and governments income. that is all its about. nothing else.

this is what people voted for when they voted in a party that said it wouldnt raise income taxes. this is what the people have already voted for.

On the (reasonable) assumption that the property tax fails.....

Will they refund those who have done their civic duty and paid it; thereby rewarding those who didnt?

Unlikely. Didn't do it for those who paid the water charges.

That is because this tax is being deliberately fudged. They want people to believe that it is for local services so that they are more likely to pay it. But it is not. It is to help pay the bank-debt bills and the annual 20 billion deficit

Agreed. If this money wasn't going to disappear into a black-hole of mis-managed taxes I'd be inclinded to consider paying it. If I believed that this would affect the local service I would consider this to be a fair and sensible tax.

+1

If you hand it over then your money is as good as spent and you'll never see it again. I refer you to the number one rule of acquisition:


http://www.sjtrek.com/trek/rules/

.

What makes this tax different to other taxes? Why is it alright not to pay this one? Is it because it's new?

The consensus on the pin seems to be that tax evasion, corruption etc is to be condemned, but this tax is different.

When it is based on property values will people be happy to pay it?

Are people in favour of a general tax strike?