http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... ing23.html



I am tempted to make reference to the treaty as a haemorrhoid cushion being needed to protect the bloated haemorrhoids that is Ireland's unchecked public expenditure but the image of Joan Burton capacious arse was too much.



Over 20 billion a year - over 55% of all taxes raised - go to pay for an inaffordable social welfare system. We are broke and borrowing money is not the answer.



Well then you would have to start cutting public expenditure rather than letting it bloat at present and show some real leadership.

So much for the trickle down affect aye?

That trickle down is someone pissing on you.

I knew I'd seen this poster before.


It's the 1979 Conservative election poster!



33 years standing there, they must be really fed up at this stage.

Unfortunately, I think this is going to be a resounding yes vote. The establishment has been scaring the shit out of middle ireland - take yesterdays Indo for instance - every single columnist who wrote on the matter was pushing the yes vote on the basis that we will be living under a bridge, smoking crack and eating catfood if we dont vote yes. Middle Ireland for years has listened to the establishment despite evidence that would suggest they shouldnt (see catholic church, Fianna Fail etc.) and it looks like the powers that be will get their way yet again. I cant see why the two main newspapers (the IT has been pushing the yes side too) would tow the party line as I cant see how they could benefit? On the whole I think our main media outlets have presented this in a blatantly partizan manner!!

You can't seriously believe that the No voters are not 'the sector of society who have become dependent on the State to provide for them.'??

Every single political entity campaigning for a No vote is doing so on the basis that the state is not spending enough on its dependents. 99.9% of the people who turn out to vote no will be Sinn Fein/ULA clients, enraged that their First Holy Communion grant has been cut. The fact that 0.01% will be self righteous libertarian Pinsters doesn't negate the rationale of the 99.9%.

A simple mistake. Some in our society are dependent on the State for life itself while others are dependent on the State for their lifestyle. You might like to equate yourself with the weakest and most disadvantaged in our society but really you have chosen your dependency on the State. I have no doubt that your lifestyle would be severely impacted by higher taxes, - even a wealth tax, but I doubt very much that it could be compared to the withdrawal of essential health services, respite for carers, or learning support for disabled children.

If I have a minority view, that doesn't make it wrong.

Nice attempt to twist things around and label people 'libertarians'.
Indeed you managed to tar 'no' voters as being SF and ULA too.

Blue Horseshoe nailed it earlier; a yes vote is a vote to continue spending at elevated levels, a wholesale denial of reality.

I wont be voting and I've pointed out that a 'yes' is clearly the best option for Ireland [u]but[/i] I would support a 'no' vote to rattle the establishment.
Whats clear from all this is that lessons have not been learned in Ireland.

+100

Dissenting opinions arent allowed much these days in this FG dominated pin .

I hope the FG'ers haven't read my opinions on enda !

I don't for a moment think that someone with a minority view is 'wrong'. I can see valid arguments for voting no and valid arguments for voting yes. I find it a little odd that you seem to think that choosing to work in the public service is 'choosing dependency on the state' but if you are arrogant enough to write off the complex and varying motivations of 300,000 people, there is not a lot of point in arguing the toss.

I'm not even going to address your comment about my personal/family circumstances in terms of tax and extent of our dependency on the public health service, because it is beneath contempt.

I asked a simple question - do you genuinely think that most of the 'no' voters are doing so because they think the state is spending too much on public service and welfare payments? And would they be happy with the result of a no vote being a massive entrenchment of vital public services and severe cuts in social welfare?



I am not 'tarring' anyone. I am simply pointing out that most Pinsters are arguing for a No vote because they want government spending to stop, but that almost every other political voice advocating for a No vote is doing so because they believe that governmet cuts have gone too far/affected to wrong groups in society.

Just take a look at the ULA and Sinn Fein posters. The slogal is 'austerity hasn't worked'. Do you think this means they are hoping for more austerity? Or really, genuinely, believe that a couple of percentrage points of the higher rate of PAYE is going to fill a 20 billion hole in the public finances?

Incidentally, one of the reasons I am voting Yes is that it will hasten the day that the political establishment are forced to face up to the fact that the deal under the Croke Park agreement that PS salaries can not be touched is unworkable and immoral. This is likely to directly impact negatively on my own income.

No, I'm sorry, its wholly misleading to characterise 'no' voters as people who want 'government spending to stop'.
Thats just ridiculous.
What no voters want is some control on government spending, control that they clearly cannot exert themselves.
And of course 'government spending' means spending my money.
A loud and clear message from the voting public is what is needed.


No.
What a yes vote will do is allow the same crowd to carry on the suicidal economic and fiscal policies that have brought the country to this position.
Its a can-kicking exercise.
Nothing is addressed, nothing is solved and nothing is done.

Indeed Blue horseshoes earlier post makes you wonder if government ministers even recognise that there is a problem.

You are entirely missing the point.

The 'official' no campaign wants government spending cuts reversed; most of the 'no' voters are supporting them on that basis.

'You' do not constitute that group, you are part of a very small group that thinks a 'no' vote will force some control on government spending. Which may well be true, but it is not what the 'official' no vote is campaigning for.

Which bit of "No to Austerity" is unclear to you?

In theory it's great and I'm fully in favour of this (in fact I would reduce total allowable debt to 25%).

What I don't like about the treaty is ...



http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/european_government/fiscal_stability_treaty/current_eu_fiscal_rules.html

We're in our 5th year of a budget deficit in excess of 3% and the problem is so 'urgent' that we are to be given ... emmm ... a further 3 years to bring it in line.
Not only is that avoiding the whole urgency of the problem, but every year it fails to be tackled, our total government debt increases, thus making the 2018 deadline for total government debt impossible.

With a further 3 years to reduce our deficit below 3%, you can be sure this government will use every minute it can.
Thus, come 2015, we will have only 3 years to get the government deficit to 60% of GDP.
How do you rate our chances of success ?
Only bureaucrats (and vote-hungry politicians) could come up with such incompatible targets.

The irony is, if Ireland didn't have access to Troika money, it would be forced to face reality and deal with it's excessive spending and debt problem immediately.
This would force the country to bite the bullet, ultimately allowing us to 'turn the corner' far sooner.
(How many can-kicking excercises does Iceland have lined up until 2018 ?)

This isn't a fiscal treaty, it's a bloody bullshit bureaucratic treaty which does nothing to solve, but actively solidifies, Ireland's mistakes of the past 12+ years.

That is exactly why I'm voting no. This is the only way we can get the country back on its feet when we force the government to curtail its spending and face up to the debt problem.

The government knows what it needs to do but they are scared shitless to do it.