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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:07 pm 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Evil_g wrote:

"Post Brexit". And Brexit means?

The papers released yesterday, the BBC article that raised this point, and I, are specifically refering to a "No-deal" situation come the 29th of March next year.

You're talking about some unspecified set of circumstances at some unspecified point in the future.


So you're referring to a potential 'window' period of unspecified length (24 hours? 72 hours?) during which there may be some teething problems in terms of bureaucratic oversight? And after which business as usual, would be resumed?

Hardly seems like a domesday scenario.



In the event of the treaties upon which all European Law is based ceasing to apply to the UK, I'd expect that the UK civil service will be pretty snowed under.

I think it would take quite some time to prepare the necessary paperwork to replace this miniscule, relatively straightforward, element of the single market, to the satisfaction of all stakeholders.

It's taken half a century to build up, and if you withdraw from the whole thing, it is not going to be replaced in 72 hours.

Business contracts don't operate on a nod and a wink.


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Evil_g wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Evil_g wrote:

"Post Brexit". And Brexit means?

The papers released yesterday, the BBC article that raised this point, and I, are specifically refering to a "No-deal" situation come the 29th of March next year.

You're talking about some unspecified set of circumstances at some unspecified point in the future.


So you're referring to a potential 'window' period of unspecified length (24 hours? 72 hours?) during which there may be some teething problems in terms of bureaucratic oversight? And after which business as usual, would be resumed?

Hardly seems like a domesday scenario.


In the event of the treaties upon which all European Law is based ceasing to apply to the UK, I'd expect that the UK civil service will be pretty snowed under.

I think it would take quite some time to prepare the necessary paperwork to replace this miniscule, relatively straightforward, element of the single market, to the satisfaction of all stakeholders.

It's taken half a century to build up, and if you withdraw from the whole thing, it is not going to be replaced in 72 hours.

Business contracts don't operate on a nod and a wink.


While I certainly take your point about unprecedented levels of uncertainty applying to everything connected to Brexit currently, I don't share the perception that it may cause systemic collapse or anything like it.

The respective civil services have years of experience of reinventing their own work practices based around events as they unfold, be they Directives or ongoing political or legal events. And while the noises coming from within the British civil service may be playing up suggestions of chaotic outcomes it needs to be remembered that many are the most vested of interests when it comes to maintaining the umbilical chord to Brussels. I cannot accept that journalists or contributors to an online forum such as this are ahead of the game vis a vis the people who will have direct responsibility for such matters come the day of reckoning.

So there may be a degree of disruption as there is with all change but as another poster previously noted, in 2008 the financial system did not collapse. The world kept turning and those with responsibility for such matters simply rewrote the manual to ensure that the wheels of commerce kept on keeping on....and I say that as someone who at that time very much bought into the notion that things would go apocalyptic.

The same will happen in this instance, albeit messily.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:22 pm 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
The respective civil services have years of experience of reinventing their own work practices based around events as they unfold, be they Directives or ongoing political or legal events. And while the noises coming from within the British civil service may be playing up suggestions of chaotic outcomes it needs to be remembered that many are the most vested of interests when it comes to maintaining the umbilical chord to Brussels. I cannot accept that journalists or contributors to an online forum such as this are ahead of the game vis a vis the people who will have direct responsibility for such matters come the day of reckoning.

We only have to look at Anglo-Irish relations when the two governments were barely on talking terms for most of a century it was civil servants on both side who bridged the gaps of necessity on a "what they don't need to know won't harm them basis".

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:33 pm 
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The shear number of treaties, regulations, policies, guidelines, case law etc that are in place to make everything work would literally take a forklift to move if they were all printed out. They are all tied together by a couple of concepts: The underlying treaty and the ECJ. These underlying concepts are being voided next March. Everything comes crashing down.

What are they going to replace it with and more to the point who exactly is going to do this work? There are literally only a handful of people in Ireland qualified to write such agreements. Any new agreement after a messy Brexit will take a long time to even write out.

To say that the manual was rewritten in 2008 is simply wrong. The Irish executive, the Taoiseach, Minister of Finance etc. have enormous legal authority. They have more legal authority than most people realized. No laws were changed and new laws were introduced at the time. Some tweaks here and there happened in the subsequent years. They exercised pre-existing executive authority that they had. I may not agree with what was done but I fully aware that what was done was fully within the authority of the executive.

No one in the EU has the power to make UK driving licenses valid by executive order. Only the EU Parliament has that authority. And the EU moves slowly.


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:48 pm 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Evil_g wrote:

In the event of the treaties upon which all European Law is based ceasing to apply to the UK, I'd expect that the UK civil service will be pretty snowed under.

I think it would take quite some time to prepare the necessary paperwork to replace this miniscule, relatively straightforward, element of the single market, to the satisfaction of all stakeholders.

It's taken half a century to build up, and if you withdraw from the whole thing, it is not going to be replaced in 72 hours.

Business contracts don't operate on a nod and a wink.


While I certainly take your point about unprecedented levels of uncertainty applying to everything connected to Brexit currently, I don't share the perception that it may cause systemic collapse or anything like it.

The respective civil services have years of experience of reinventing their own work practices based around events as they unfold, be they Directives or ongoing political or legal events. And while the noises coming from within the British civil service may be playing up suggestions of chaotic outcomes it needs to be remembered that many are the most vested of interests when it comes to maintaining the umbilical chord to Brussels. I cannot accept that journalists or contributors to an online forum such as this are ahead of the game vis a vis the people who will have direct responsibility for such matters come the day of reckoning.

So there may be a degree of disruption as there is with all change but as another poster previously noted, in 2008 the financial system did not collapse. The world kept turning and those with responsibility for such matters simply rewrote the manual to ensure that the wheels of commerce kept on keeping on....and I say that as someone who at that time very much bought into the notion that things would go apocalyptic.

The same will happen in this instance, albeit messily.


What you're saying, is that Brexit (whatever that ends up being) probably won't lead to systemic collapse.

What I'm saying, is that failure to have a withdrawal agreement, which includes a transition period, in place by the 29th of March next year would absolutely lead to systemic collapse. Certainly within the UK, and it would have very severe repercussions outside of the UK.

However, the most likely outcome, in my opinion, is that a withdrawal agreement will be reached, which will include a backstop provision very close to the current proposed wording. This will provide for a two year transition period during which the UK will have pretty much the same rights and obligations as they currently do.

It will also include some waffle about the EU's intention strike a uniquely special trade deal (in so far as this is possible with the UK's redlines).

This will be presented (a) to the leavers in the UK parliament as "take it or no Brexit", and (b) to remainers in parliament as "take it or no withdrawal agreement". Nobody will care what the DUP think.

Then one of two things will happen.

(a) Either the Parliament will reject it, the government will fall, a general election will be announced, and the UK will ask nicely for an extension to the Article 50 period to allow the election be held. What the election will be fought on will depend on the public mood, but you'd hope some hard questions about where the fuck all of this is heading might be asked; or

(b) And I believe this is more likely, parliament will accept the deal.

If the deal is accepted, in early April, the UK will sit down as a third country, with seasoned EU trade negotiators to negotiate the first of their wonderful Global Britain Trade deals. They will initially request a unicorns and fairies Canada+++ deal based on imagination and good will from all sides. They will not be in a position to threaten to withhold future payments. They will not be in a position to threaten to partition Ireland.

They will be eviscerated.

No other country will enter into trade negotiations with them until their future relationship with Europe is clear.

And the clock will be ticking towards the end of the transition period in 2021, after which, you guessed it, the Treaties will cease to apply.

Once the UK population finally realise that absolutely nothing that is on the table is anywhere close to as good as their current arrangement
(surely the penny has to drop before the end of 2019) I see at least three possible outcomes (presented in order of least likely to most likely):

(a) The public will direct their anger towards the politicians who brought them to this point and demand that EU accession talks begin immediately;

(b) The public agree that the best they can hope for is (i) a Canada style deal which would disastrous for integrated supply chains and their services industry, or (ii) a Norway style deal which would be humiliating, expensive, and they'd still have to deal with those slightly brown people who talk funny; or

(c) The public demand that the government negotiate harder so that they can have their cake and eat it. To allow this take place the government ask for a good long extension to the transition period, with progressively fewer rights, but the same amount of obligations. Ten years ought to do it. We're not transitioning to nowhere, just transitioning to the point that no one in charge can be blamed for the problem.

So, yeah, I fully agree that Brexit probably won't result in systemic collapse.

So long as a withdrawal agreement is in place by March 29th next year.


Last edited by Evil_g on Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Joined: Oct 11, 2012
Posts: 709
Evil_g wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Evil_g wrote:

In the event of the treaties upon which all European Law is based ceasing to apply to the UK, I'd expect that the UK civil service will be pretty snowed under.

I think it would take quite some time to prepare the necessary paperwork to replace this miniscule, relatively straightforward, element of the single market, to the satisfaction of all stakeholders.

It's taken half a century to build up, and if you withdraw from the whole thing, it is not going to be replaced in 72 hours.

Business contracts don't operate on a nod and a wink.


While I certainly take your point about unprecedented levels of uncertainty applying to everything connected to Brexit currently, I don't share the perception that it may cause systemic collapse or anything like it.

The respective civil services have years of experience of reinventing their own work practices based around events as they unfold, be they Directives or ongoing political or legal events. And while the noises coming from within the British civil service may be playing up suggestions of chaotic outcomes it needs to be remembered that many are the most vested of interests when it comes to maintaining the umbilical chord to Brussels. I cannot accept that journalists or contributors to an online forum such as this are ahead of the game vis a vis the people who will have direct responsibility for such matters come the day of reckoning.

So there may be a degree of disruption as there is with all change but as another poster previously noted, in 2008 the financial system did not collapse. The world kept turning and those with responsibility for such matters simply rewrote the manual to ensure that the wheels of commerce kept on keeping on....and I say that as someone who at that time very much bought into the notion that things would go apocalyptic.

The same will happen in this instance, albeit messily.


What you're saying, is that Brexit (whatever that ends up being) probably won't lead to systemic collapse.

What I'm saying, is that failure to have a withdrawal agreement, which includes a transition period, in place by the 29th of March next year would absolutely lead to systemic collapse. Certainly within the UK, and it would have very severe repercussions outside of the UK.

However, the most likely outcome, in my opinion, is that a withdrawal agreement will be reached, which will include a backstop provision very close to the current proposed wording. This will provide for a two year transition period during which the UK will have pretty much the same rights and obligations as they currently do.

It will also include some waffle about the EU's intention strike a uniquely special trade deal (in so far as this is possible with the UK's redlines). This will be presented (a) to the leavers in the UK parliament as "take it or no Brexit", and (b) to remainers in parliament as "take it or no withdrawal agreement". Nobody will care what the DUP think.

Then one of two things will happen.

(a) Either the Parliament will reject it, the government will fall, a general election will be announced, and the UK will ask nicely for an extension to the Article 50 period to allow the election be held. What the election will be fought on will depend on the public mood, but you'd hope some hard questions about where the fuck all of this is heading might be asked; or

(b) And I believe this is more likely, parliament will accept the deal.

If the deal is accepted, in early April, the UK will sit down as a third country, with seasoned EU trade negotiators to negotiate the first of their wonderful Global Britain Trade deals. They will initially request a unicorns and fairies Canada+++ deal based on imagination and good will from all sides. They will not be in a position to threaten to withhold future payments. They will not be in a position to threaten to partition Ireland.

They will be eviscerated.

No other country will enter into trade negotiations with them until their future relationship with Europe is clear.

And the clock will be ticking towards the end of the transition period in 2021, after which, you guessed it, the Treaties will cease to apply.

Once the UK population finally realise that absolutely nothing that is on the table is anywhere close to as good as their current arrangement
(surely the penny has to drop before the end of 2019) I see at least three possible outcomes (presented in order of least likely to most likely):

(a) The public will direct their anger towards the politicians who brought them to this point and demand that EU accession talks begin immediately;

(b) The public agree that the best they can hope for is (i) a Canada style deal which would disastrous for integrated supply chains and their services industry, or (ii) a Norway style deal which would be humiliating, expensive, and they'd still have to deal with those slightly brown people who talk funny; or

(c) The public demand that the government negotiate harder so that they can have their cake and eat it. To allow this take place the government ask for a good long extension to the transition period, with progressively fewer rights, but the same amount of obligations. Ten years ought to do it. We're not transitioning to nowhere, just transitioning to the point that no one in charge can be blamed for the problem.

So, yeah, I fully agree that Brexit probably won't result in systemic collapse.

So long as a withdrawal agreement is in place by March 29th next year.


A very good summary.

The Breixteers in England are still (although perhaps slightly less than before) wittering on about 'absurd' and 'silly' notions that UK aircraft could be grounded, or truck drivers prevented from driving on the continent, or animal products stopped at EU borders. Like Poacher above, they assume that because it 'makes sense' to keep things as they are in these areas, it will magically happen, even with no deal. But as the EU patiently and repeatedly point out, all these things require a legal framework, outside of which the UK has chosen to place itself. And in the absence of new arrangements which replace existing legal agreements, there are certain ineluctable consequences.


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:14 pm 
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The Curious One wrote:
Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Do you really believe that people holding British driving licenses will be excluded from driving in France and Spain ?



Yes, because they are not insured. They are not insured because they do not have a license; they don't have a license because the international treaties that the license was based on has been rescinded.

Have you ever tried to claim insurance? Every comma, dot or smudge or crease in a contract is used as an excuse as to why not to pay out claims. Do you really think that insurance companies are going to pay out large amounts of money when they don't have to?

The Curious One wrote:
No one in the EU has the power to make UK driving licenses valid by executive order. Only the EU Parliament has that authority. And the EU moves slowly.

I think driving licenses are actually an area that will be somewhat insulated from disruption. It's governed by a UN agreement, to which all EU countries are signatories. The EU driving license format only smooths the process within the UN agreement so the UK exiting the EU won't nullify the original UN agreement. A UK license will still have been issued by the national authority of a signatory to the UN agreement, therefore it is valid in other countries that are signatories. The most that can be required is that you obtain an IDP to go with it. I've had to do this to drive in other countries outside the EU and it is a relatively painless process. Just fill in a short form and send it together with a photo, a copy of your license, and €15, to the AA in Dublin and you'll get an IDP back in the post a few days later. Then you're good to go for a year. The same for insurance. The green card system has existed since before the EU and covers more countries than the EU. There's nothing to stop UK insurers, or indeed insurers from other countries, offering UK drivers green card coverage to drive in other parts of Europe, within the EU or outside it.

There are many major areas for potentially catastrophic disruption but I think the driving abroad one is way overplayed.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:25 pm 
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Part of me thinks that the British public won't truly understand how interdependent they are after four decades of economic integration with the EU until they see unmistakable effects on their shelves. I won't be surprised if this thing goes right to the brink. It would be foolish for use to not prepare for a hard Brexit.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:11 pm 
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mortgageboy wrote:
A very good summary.

Indeed it is, thanks Evil_g!

Quote:
The Breixteers in England are still (although perhaps slightly less than before) wittering on about 'absurd' and 'silly' notions that UK aircraft could be grounded, or truck drivers prevented from driving on the continent, or animal products stopped at EU borders. Like Poacher above, they assume that because it 'makes sense' to keep things as they are in these areas, it will magically happen, even with no deal. But as the EU patiently and repeatedly point out, all these things require a legal framework, outside of which the UK has chosen to place itself. And in the absence of new arrangements which replace existing legal agreements, there are certain ineluctable consequences.

Absolutely, and I think the reason is the differing legal systems - the UK and part of the Irish system are principles based to a degree with a common sense element underpinning (man on the Clapham omnibus). This has precedent. The European (and rest of the world, largely) have rules based systems. They cannot turn a blind eye to something that doesn't make sense. Equally, you're far less likely to get off (e.g. corporate manslaughter is more vigorously pursued because that's what the law says you should do). Neither is ideal and I'm not sure you can mix them. I believe that Ireland has a mix - some inherited from the UK, some transposed from Europe. I may be wrong on all of this, but that's my gut feeling.

The Brexiters are myopic about the consequences because it'd never happen in England that a silly law would get in the way of going about your daily business. Why can't Europe be more like England! :|

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:51 pm 
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Back on the legal topic, 'common law' was the phrase I was grasping for above. And it appears we are still fully common law, so there you go. Let the loopholes abound. Anyway, I've never been more pro and agreement than I was after reading this and seeing the picture...
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/091 ... al-system/

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