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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:52 am 
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dolanbaker wrote:
It's also worth remembering that much of the "home" counties voted remain.


No they didn't. London voted to remain.

All of Essex, nearly all of Kent and about half of Sussex voted leave.

There is a ring of leave-voting districts that almost encircles London.

Look here.

People can understand why places on the east coast of England with low levels of education voted leave.

It is much harder to understand why Aylesbury - which is extremely prosperous and has done very well from low trade barriers and inward migration - voted to leave.


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:58 am 
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Skippy 3 wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:
It's also worth remembering that much of the "home" counties voted remain.


No they didn't. London voted to remain.

All of Essex, nearly all of Kent and about half of Sussex voted leave.

There is a ring of leave-voting districts that almost encircles London.

Look here.

People can understand why places on the east coast of England with low levels of education voted leave.

It is much harder to understand why Aylesbury - which is extremely prosperous and has done very well from low trade barriers and inward migration - voted to leave.

This is a perfect example why many people in the UK have lost faith in the elite and their leaders as they are being stigmatized as being "uneducated" because they voted the wrong way.

Many people have absolutely no idea what the "man in the street" is thinking and in many cases do not care, so just dismiss them as "uneducated".

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:20 am 
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dolanbaker wrote:

This is a perfect example why many people in the UK have lost faith in the elite and their leaders as they are being stigmatized as being "uneducated" because they voted the wrong way.

Many people have absolutely no idea what the "man in the street" is thinking and in many cases do not care, so just dismiss them as "uneducated".


Educational attainment is highly correlated with voting to remain.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/

Quote:
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:48 am 
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dolanbaker wrote:

Many people have absolutely no idea what the "man in the street" is thinking and in many cases do not care, so just dismiss them as "uneducated".

Having moved to England just after the vote this is the thing that I most struggle with. The media here is just a partisan punch and judy show. In conversation the topic is barely mentoned by the average Brit and when it is broached I find their grasp on the EU is extremely limited, and don't even get me started on their ignorance of their own country! And many of these are professionals I'm talking about, many of whom have worked abroad!

National media is a battlefield, whereas sometimes just listening to the local radio is where you'll find out what the public are thinking. In a recent local radio vox pop both leave and remain voters up my way all expressed the desire to "just get on with it, stop mucking about." I don't believe there really is an appetite outside the remain bubbles for a "peoples vote", if anything it's probably rubbing people up the wrong way. Corbyn's absolutely right to not push on this.

I reckon on the ground ending of Freedom of Movement is the great masses redline around which they'll coalesce if pushed. Many conflated non-EU immigration with Freedom of Movement. Yeah, they haven't fully understood it means the dream of retiring to the Playa da Blackpool becomes harder but then they mentally never viewed those stomping grounds as foreign anyway!

This is why I reckon we're heading for a customs deal, and tough shít DUP, you're getting an Irish sea border. If the DUP collapse the government they'll get one with Corbyn anyway so that's why I reckon the DUP will spin it as a compromise somehow. Call it damage limitation after bringing forward the prospect of a border poll by a few generations!

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Evil_g wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:

This is a perfect example why many people in the UK have lost faith in the elite and their leaders as they are being stigmatized as being "uneducated" because they voted the wrong way.

Many people have absolutely no idea what the "man in the street" is thinking and in many cases do not care, so just dismiss them as "uneducated".


Educational attainment is highly correlated with voting to remain.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/

Quote:
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.

In a democracy, a poor(ly educated) man's vote has the same weight as a rich (educated) man's vote.
It's very dangerous to dismiss the less educated people, the Brexit vote is a classic example.

_________________
Our whole economy is based on planned obsolescence, and anyone who can read without moving his lips should know it by now: Brooks Stevens.
Planned obsolescence, one of the largest contributors to the man made element of climate change, but the one least discussed: dolanbaker
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:30 pm 
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dolanbaker wrote:
In a democracy, a poor(ly educated) man's vote has the same weight as a rich (educated) man's vote.
It's very dangerous to dismiss the less educated people, the Brexit vote is a classic example.


The uneducated weren't, and aren't being, dismissed. They are being courted, and pandered to, by large swathes of "the elite".

Most of the tabloid media, and 50% of so called "quality" sectors like the BBC, pander to the utter fantasy held by those who haven't the faintest idea of what the EU is, or how it works, (the uneducated), that the EU is a significant factor in the problems which they perceive, and that leaving the EU will somehow make their lives in anyway better.

The problem is not that the uneducated are being dismissed. The problem is that they are being lied to.


Last edited by Evil_g on Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:31 pm 
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dolanbaker wrote:
Evil_g wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:

This is a perfect example why many people in the UK have lost faith in the elite and their leaders as they are being stigmatized as being "uneducated" because they voted the wrong way.

Many people have absolutely no idea what the "man in the street" is thinking and in many cases do not care, so just dismiss them as "uneducated".


Educational attainment is highly correlated with voting to remain.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/

Quote:
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.

In a democracy, a poor(ly educated) man's vote has the same weight as a rich (educated) man's vote.
It's very dangerous to dismiss the less educated people, the Brexit vote is a classic example.


They're not being dismissed. They're just being told that they won't like the probable consequences of their poorly informed votes, while at the same time, action is being taken to try to limit those consequences.

In a democracy, people have the freedom to vote to go to hell in a handcart. That doesn't mean they have the freedom to stop others saying "I told you so."

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Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations
Book I, Chapter X, Part II,


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:26 am 
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There's enough educated people in support of Brexit to make assertions about the inherent uneducatedness of taking a pro-Brexit position to be, well, dumb.

Given the number of Mickey Mouse degrees in surfing and media studies churned out since the 1990s, reliance on the notion that the average graduate now has more wisdom than the average graduate in 1975 is a bit shaky.

I wonder if you'd taken a poll in the year 2000 in Greece about the wisdom of joining the Euro ? I'd wager a higher proportion of Greek graduates than shepherds were in favour. Funnily enough despite their lack of educational attainment and knowledge of how the EU worked the shepherds were right.


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:36 am 
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It certainly looks like Brexit will be a cock-up founded on misleading assertions on what was achievable.

But how will a history student look back on the EU in 50 years time. It's a top-down political project with sclerotic governance. Every crisis over the last 10 years follows the same pattern - Greece, Ukraine, Migration :
- set piece crisis prime ministerial meetings with 90% pre-agreed outcomes
- late night decisions which turn out to be muddled fudges
- every minister rushes out to claim victory to his awaiting national broadcaster

Do you really think that's sustainable for 20 more years ?


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:55 am 
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Exactly.

This approach of highlighting the number of supposedly educated people in favour or against something is becoming standard schtick at this stage. It's a ploy that assumes that everyone not the same as 'us' aspires to be just like us.

It's basically an attempt at psychological manipulation that assumes a desire on the part of most people to self identify as 'progressive' etc or more correctly not 'non progressive' or whatever noun fits that description (in Ireland it usually entails reference to De Valera or the 1950s etc). It's a component of what Chomsky described as the manufacturing of consent. Clintons ' deplorables' comment fits into the same category and has less to do with a belief that those in possession of a university degree are more capable of interpreting the world than those without, and more to do with an assumption about the herd instinct of the majority. Indeed, as GB alludes to above, it's becoming more and more likely that people who never attended third level education may in fact be a lot more capable of independent thought than those who did.

Basically the millennial version of Mrs Bucket/Bouqet.....

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