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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:35 pm 
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ps200306 wrote:
I know older CofI people in the Republic whose own parents would have been keenly aware of the passing of an era after Irish independence, and an effect on their own culture as the Protestant population declined significantly. Only a minority of nordie Prods are Lambeg drum-beating triumphalists.
[/quote]
Put it this way, if a group said they wanted annual bonfires on which they burnt Jewish/Muslim effigies and flags, followed by
parades that stop outside synagogues and mosques where they play anti-Jewish/Muslim songs on fifes to the beat of a Lambeg drum, would you be cool with that?

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:37 pm 
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catbear wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
I know older CofI people in the Republic whose own parents would have been keenly aware of the passing of an era after Irish independence, and an effect on their own culture as the Protestant population declined significantly. Only a minority of nordie Prods are Lambeg drum-beating triumphalists.

Put it this way, if a group said they wanted annual bonfires on which they burnt Jewish/Muslim effigies and flags, followed by
parades that stop outside synagogues and mosques where they play anti-Jewish/Muslim songs on fifes to the beat of a Lambeg drum, would you imagine that being allowed?

Edit to add, the OO parade in Donegal goes off without trouble because they're not allowed confrontations.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:05 pm 
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catbear wrote:
catbear wrote:
ps200306 wrote:
I know older CofI people in the Republic whose own parents would have been keenly aware of the passing of an era after Irish independence, and an effect on their own culture as the Protestant population declined significantly. Only a minority of nordie Prods are Lambeg drum-beating triumphalists.

Put it this way, if a group said they wanted annual bonfires on which they burnt Jewish/Muslim effigies and flags, followed by
parades that stop outside synagogues and mosques where they play anti-Jewish/Muslim songs on fifes to the beat of a Lambeg drum, would you imagine that being allowed?

We don't need to speculate. You can find bloodthirsty republican songs being sung in any number of pubs any night of the week. I remember chatting to the proprietor of a jampacked pub in Killarney who wished his own hired band would stop singing "Maggie's Arsehole" -- his generic term for the brand of fervent anthems that he was afraid would offend his customers, half of whom were English, as he was himself.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:19 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ys-barnier
Quote:
The European commission official conceded that the EU plan for the province would involve “administrative procedures that do not exist today for goods travelling to the Northern Ireland from rest of the UK”, with checks on live animals increasing tenfold.

But, “Brexit was not our choice”, Barnier said. “Our proposal tries to help the UK in managing the negative fallout of Brexit in Northern Ireland in a way that respects the integrity of the UK”.

He added: “Our proposal is just a safety net, the backstop. It is needed because the detail of the future withdrawal with the UK will only begin after the UK withdraws.

“The future relationship itself might mitigate the checks and even make some unnecessary. For instance a veterinary agreement between the EU and the UK would mean less frequent inspections of live animals … And we are still open – we are still open – to the idea of having a customs union with the UK. Such a customs union would eliminate an important part of customs checks.”

I think Northern Ireland is getting an unreal economical deal here, unfortunately, the DUP will never accept it.


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:55 pm 
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ps200306 wrote:
We don't need to speculate. You can find bloodthirsty republican songs being sung in any number of pubs any night of the week. I remember chatting to the proprietor of a jampacked pub in Killarney who wished his own hired band would stop singing "Maggie's Arsehole" -- his generic term for the brand of fervent anthems that he was afraid would offend his customers, half of whom were English, as he was himself.

Is it a blood thirsty thing to want independence from a foreign regime that pits neighbours against eachother by their religious tradition?

Our anthem, as sung by English men too in the GPO proclaimed an open franchise.
Quote:
Soldiers are we
whose lives are pledged to Ireland;
Some have come
from a land beyond the wave.
Sworn to be free,
No more our ancient sire land
Shall shelter the despot or the slave.


I think the question really is what do the Ulster loyalist have to offer us, and I say that as an Irish protestant.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:46 am 
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Interesting stuff.

Its quite likely that in a post-Brexit UI 32 county scenario the harderline of the Unionists would find themselves having more in common with the more conservative Catholic elements in the south...and possibly also with many of the migrant communities who are generally inherently conservative on social issues. You could potentially see Evangelical Nigerians marching in 12th of July parades in Blanchardstown....Oh the posssibilities :)

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:00 am 
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Lest there be any confusion, I cannot stand the Orange Order. They are dinosaurs and even most unionists must know that. Can't imagine Mike Nesbitt, for example, having any truck with them. (Although I have an image of Trimble standing shouting at the PSNI while wearing a sash...)

Edit: Just checked - Nesbitt is the only UUP leader not to have been a member of the OO :roll:

I just threw the OO into the mix as the most 'challenging' element of unionist/loyalist culture that we'd have to integrate post reunification. Like the idea of merging them with the new evangelical churches. Orange is the New Bla...

Anyway, Brexit: May will ask cabinet to agree Brexit deal that keeps UK in customs union as DUP threatens to pull the plug


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:13 am 
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Poacher turned gamekeeper wrote:
Interesting stuff.

Its quite likely that in a post-Brexit UI 32 county scenario the harderline of the Unionists would find themselves having more in common with the more conservative Catholic elements in the south...and possibly also with many of the migrant communities who are generally inherently conservative on social issues. You could potentially see Evangelical Nigerians marching in 12th of July parades in Blanchardstown....Oh the posssibilities :)

That friction has already happened in some protestant communities in Ireland. African protestants are tending to establish their own churches as the Irish churches in the republic aren't godly enough. An African service can last hours, be more like a Feile rather than the limp wristed weekly tea and buns by the clock meetup. Testimonies of gods help are as much about immigrants geeing eachother up with stories of financial and social progress. An orange order march would be rather tame and pointless to them.

Knowing people from staunch DUP land I don't think we in the republic fully appreciate that if partition ends loads of them will clear out and there's nowt that we can do or say that will stop them, and we certainly should not berate ourselves for that.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:34 am 
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Where will they go? Their image of the motherland is a place that doesn't exist - at least not in England. Maybe some corner of Scotland?
Best bet is US Bible Belt. Give them all special J1s so they can try it out..


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:00 am 
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Ixelles wrote:
Where will they go? Their image of the motherland is a place that doesn't exist - at least not in England. Maybe some corner of Scotland?
Best bet is US Bible Belt. Give them all special J1s so they can try it out..

Depends on what Britain offers them. I could see a good few of the hardcore rural types heading for the Australian wheat belt, plenty of evangelical movements like Hillsong to slot into, there was even a UVF off shoot in Alice Springs! White Australia is essentially a planter culture so they'll fit right in with all the relocated white south africans and zimbabweans.

It's amazing how easy it is to get a refugee visa to Australia if you're white, although they don't call it that! I went along to one Uniting Church service, which would be a traditional moderate Methodist/Presbyterian mix in Oz and it was full of the worst racist dregs of empire, the first greeting I got was "you're very welcome, we need more of your type, too many blacks here". I didn't go back.

There's already a small evangelical movement in the republic which is mopping up the most spiritually needy from all creeds, but like the white imperialist dregs in Australia, a loyalist sharing a pew with a taig might not be their type of christianity.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:14 pm 
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catbear wrote:
Ixelles wrote:
Where will they go? Their image of the motherland is a place that doesn't exist - at least not in England. Maybe some corner of Scotland?
Best bet is US Bible Belt. Give them all special J1s so they can try it out..

Depends on what Britain offers them. I could see a good few of the hardcore rural types heading for the Australian wheat belt, plenty of evangelical movements like Hillsong to slot into, there was even a UVF off shoot in Alice Springs! White Australia is essentially a planter culture so they'll fit right in with all the relocated white south africans and zimbabweans.

It's amazing how easy it is to get a refugee visa to Australia if you're white, although they don't call it that! I went along to one Uniting Church service, which would be a traditional moderate Methodist/Presbyterian mix in Oz and it was full of the worst racist dregs of empire, the first greeting I got was "you're very welcome, we need more of your type, too many blacks here". I didn't go back.

There's already a small evangelical movement in the republic which is mopping up the most spiritually needy from all creeds, but like the white imperialist dregs in Australia, a loyalist sharing a pew with a taig might not be their type of christianity.


Its pretty incredible to think that something like a mass exodus could be a possibility.

Personally I dont see why we couldnt all co-habit the island peacefully. Its only two generations since men from both traditions were dying alongside each other in trenches in Flanders.

Id be of the view that the loss of the broader mass of the southern Anglo-Irish post-partition was a huge loss to the southern State upon its creation. Wasnt it Yeats who made an excellent speech in the Seanad (I think) on that very subject in which he described the reactionary tendencies of the fledgling State as being part of the reason for their departure. Hopefully history will not be repeated.

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:09 pm 
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Time is ripe to reappraise Eirexit and Treaty of 1921
by Liam Weeks and Mícheál Ó Fathartaigh

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/time-is-ripe-to-reappraise-eirexit-and-treaty-of-1921-1.3660376

Quote:
The ongoing Brexit process has attracted many a disparaging comment in Ireland about why Britain would want to leave such a grand and magnificent union. However, it was just less than a century ago that Ireland likewise chose to leave a similarly significant union of nations.

There are a number of comparisons that can be drawn between the Irish withdrawal from the United Kingdom in 1922 and the impending Brexit of 2019.


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:00 am 
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Eirexit LMAO..


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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:51 pm 
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catbear wrote:
It's amazing how easy it is to get a refugee visa to Australia if you're white, although they don't call it that! I went along to one Uniting Church service, which would be a traditional moderate Methodist/Presbyterian mix in Oz and it was full of the worst racist dregs of empire, the first greeting I got was "you're very welcome, we need more of your type, too many blacks here". I didn't go back.

That's quite surprising to me. What I heard from a former member was that the Uniting Church in Australia was quite doctrinally bland, and socially and politically liberal. On checking their Wikipedia page, I get the impression it might be different from one local congregation to another. Is it possible you just encountered one of the more reactionary wings?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniting_C ... a#Theology

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 Post subject: Re: Britain leaving the European Union.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:15 pm 
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The only news that matters today

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/wahl-in-bayern/

Do you remember how support for the moderate political parties collapsed post '98 in the North. Same thing happening in Germany. All thanks to Merkel. But Germany, unlike NI, actually matters. Especially as this is what all you pro EU people are shackling yourselves to.

The collapse of the SPD vote is the mostly startling. Now #4. Just three times the Linke vote.

Although the parallels are not exact reading this book..

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1626540187/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i0

.. should be a sobering experience for those who think the future of the EU is all wine and roses.

All the interviews I've read about the reasons why the working class and lower middle class voters are voting AfD is eerily similar to the reasons given for the collapse of the moderate parties back in the late 1920's. The big parties more interested in federal parliament politicking than listening to the concerns of the average voters.

I know the French, for one, are starting to do the balance sheet for the EU status quo and are preparing to bolt if and when the situation arises. This is the end game. The discussion is out in the open in Italy but is now starting to be discussed in the Netherlands and the nordics.

Would not be the first time Ireland painted itself into a corner by needlessly antagonizing traditional friends. I'm reminded of the League of Nations fiasco post '44 and the very public international humiliation of '46. Another of those great moments in modern Irish history you dont read about in Irish history books.


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